D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Crimson Longinus]

It very strictly isn't an argument about how they are powerful. It is an attempt to sidestep that argument. People play it, so it must be fine.

Sure, But's that's why balance doesn't really matter that much. If it is close enough, most people don't really care. And champion being played a lot indicates that it is not so weak that it would result an unenjoyable experience to most people. So yeah, it is basically fine.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

This is something I don't quite get. Why is spell casting necessary to travel to diverse locations, including other planes? Or to put it another way, how is a group of D&D players meant to work out that an ability/skill check - probably Intelligence (Arcana) - can't be used to find a way between planes?

Page 5 of the Basic PDF talks about the fundamental importance of magic, and links it to chapters 10 and 11 (ie not the chapters about ability checks). But how do we know that it needs magic, in that sense, to travel between planes? Why can't a fighter use a skill check to find a magical crossing or portal?

Which is where the base fighter being worse at skills than casters becomes an issue. Even when they aren't solving the problem with spells, casters are better with skill checks simply because there are more mental skills than physical ones. A caster can have all four base skills linked to their primary attribute if they so wished. A Fighter can't, even if they are a Dex fighter.

Furthermore, there are very few physical ability checks that can't be eased, expedited, or simply effectively bypassed with magic. Knowledge, perception, social checks are a lot harder to solve with a spell than shifting something, breaking something, or getting somewhere else hard or unseen.

I don't know why they didn't just give it a second fighting style right at level 3? The critical thing is so underwhelming... And so is 'Remarkable Athlete'. It should have just been Reliable Talent but for Athletics and Acrobatics.

As long as multiclassing is off the table, I found that giving it the full increased crit range at 3rd level worked fine, and helped to bring it up to Battlemaster level in damage.
And yes, Remarkable Athlete is bad. Simply granting an extra half proficiency bonus on any non-expertise ability check (including mental ones) can help though.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

I'm not saying that it couldn't use a boost, either. I'm saying that it's not bad or bad at damage, because the game was built in such a way that it can't be. You have a personal opinion about it being bad at damage, but the math can't show that. The math will only show that it does less than other subclasses and less doesn't equate to bad.

Bad might not be the right choice of words, but it is shown that it is lower on average than other fighter subclasses(except I would guess, the Banneret). So I think it is fair for a person to question or dislike that.

I also will still maintain that Remarkable Athlete could have been done much better, and simpler than the official version.

 

[Undrave]

getting somewhere else hard

Getting somewhere hard is easy, but people call you a pervert if they notice.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Bad might not be the right choice of words,

Being that it isn't harsh enough. Garbagesplosion is probably more accurate.

The fact that the Champion is being pointed at as an example of anything is an indictment of the game.

 

[Umbran]

No, it was forestalling the fallacy.

Mod Note:
It literally was not. You said, and I quote, "And it is here that you are now arguing that balance doesn't matter."

Are now arguing - in the present, not in the future.

You claimed he said a thing he did not. That's not cool. Moving the goalposts to "forestalling" after being confronted with it is even less cool. Two strikes. Clean up your approach to the discussion, please.

For everyone else, please note that this thread has gone on for nearly sixty pages now. If your arguments are snippy, not constructive, or become repetitive, it is time to find some other discussion.

 

[Maxperson]

Bad might not be the right choice of words, but it is shown that it is lower on average than other fighter subclasses(except I would guess, the Banneret). So I think it is fair for a person to question or dislike that.

Absolutely. There are lots of reasons to like or dislike a class and damage can absolutely be one of those.

I also will still maintain that Remarkable Athlete could have been done much better, and simpler than the official version.

Sure. Improvements can be had. My position is that they are not necessary for the Champion to do well at 5e, not that there isn't room for improvement.

 

[Stalker0]

Popularity is irrelevant when discussing power.

but it is relevant to the OP.

the premise here is that a majority of players do not derive their enjoyment from finely tuned game balance. Therefore requiring near exact balance for casters and martials in combat is not required to deliver the games principal “product”….player enjoyment.

 

[Yaarel]

I feel the Fighter needs more skills, for flavor reasons. Skills demonstrate nonmagical competence.

I feel the Wizard should have zero weapon proficiencies, and rely on cantrips only. Weapons are martial. The Wizard personifies arcane. But, the Wizard should be able to opt to swap a cantrip for a weapon proficiency of their choice, and use this weapon as a magical focus for spells, in place of a wand or component bag.

 

[Maxperson]

I feel the Fighter needs more skills, for flavor reasons. Skills demonstrate nonmagical competence.

Yes skills demonstrate non-magical competence, but there's nothing about "fighting" involved with most skills. I don't think they deserve extra skills.

I feel the Wizard should have zero weapon proficiencies, and rely on cantrips only. Weapons are martial. The Wizard personifies arcane. But, the Wizard should be able to opt to swap a cantrip for a weapon proficiency of their choice, and use this weapon as a magical focus for spells, in place of a wand or component bag.

I disagree with this. A longsword is martial. A staff, while a weapon, is a basic weapon that any old person can learn to use. Wizards, being smart people, know that they can be in a situation where magic won't work and would learn some basic weapons to get by. It's not as if they even begin to remotely fight as well with their dagger or staff as a Fighter does with his weapons.