D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[Yaarel]

Sure. I thought it was apparent that I was talking about the three different books angle.

A treatment for level zero, is easily a separate book, maybe a setting and-or adventure.

A treatment for epic tier, is easily a separate book, and if characterized as a superhero genre, can be setting or campaign arc from levels 13 and up being the separate book.

The front end costs of putting together a book like that are large. They then have to sell a lot of copies to break even, and then after that mass production costs are low, so they begin to make money.

It's worth it to make a level 1-20, 0-20, 0-24 or whatever single book, because they will sell a lot of those.

I get that WotC needs to know a project will earn profit.

Meanwhile, each tier feels so different from the other tiers. It is worth it to handle each tier in a more specialized treatment.

Think of all the players who want a "low magic" setting. They know full well that they can ban fullcasters and stop at level 8. But they want a special treatment for this anyway.

Maybe these low magic fans can handle the idea of the tier of levels 9-12 (equivalent to the oldschool "name levels") is when characters build strongholds and the feel of game shifts as a nice cap.

A setting/arc book focusing on levels 1 to 13, can detail how the apprentice tier (basic 1-4) feels different from the professional tier (expert 5-8), and different again from leadership tier (champion 9-13).

A setting/arc book focusing on levels 14 to 24 for superheroes, can detail how each tier shifts in feel from mortal heroes to superhuman heroes to immortal heroes.

 

[Maxperson]

A treatment for level zero, is easily a separate book, maybe a setting and-or adventure.

A treatment for epic tier, is easily a separate book, and if characterized as a superhero genre, can be setting or campaign arc from levels 13 and up being the separate book.

Can you easily write books on both? Absolutely. I'm just saying that it won't happen because it's cost ineffective.

I get that, but each tier feels so different from the other tiers. It is worth it handle each tier in a more specialized treatment.

Think of all the players who want a "low magic" setting. They know full well that they can ban fullcasters and stop at level 8. But they want a special treatment for this anyway.

Maybe these low magic fans can handle the idea of the tier of levels 9-12 (equivalent to the oldschool "name levels") is when characters build strongholds and the feel of game shifts as a nice cap.

A lot of things could warrant their own books if the costs to make them were negligible. You aren't going to see the vast majority of things that could be done in separate books, though, because the costs are very high. That's why most of the things that people want won't happen outside of third party products.

 

[Yaarel]

Can you easily write books on both? Absolutely. I'm just saying that it won't happen because it's cost ineffective.

A lot of things could warrant their own books if the costs to make them were negligible. You aren't going to see the vast majority of things that could be done in separate books, though, because the costs are very high. That's why most of the things that people want won't happen outside of third party products.

It is difficult to imagine epic mechanics without a setting and adventure arc for it.

I am less a fan of Planescape. But. It could easily be the superhero immortal book, with Marvel Asgard etcetera in mind.

 

[Maxperson]

It is difficult to imagine epic mechanics without a setting and adventure arc for it.

They've already given them to us, kinda sorta. The epic boons and such are a way to represent epic mechanics without more levels. I don't think they will make a book for it this edition.

I am less a fan of Planescape. But. It could easily be the superhero immortal book, with Marvel Asgard etcetera in mind.

It could, but I'm doubtful that they will go that way.

 

[Jaeger]

No, that's not true. Each class has a different experience to offer. With lower levels happening faster than higher levels, if our games ended at 7th level, I could run though 4-5 classes for every 1 class I take to level 20. That's waaaaaay too many, and waaaaaay too many encounters all in that narrow level range. I get to fight Balors and Tarrasques and a bunch of other stuff above level 7. You never get to experience those things outside some DM fiat situation to allow you to survive.

Each class is different - but that is due to the class. Same with an E6 experience.

For me, the current 5e Leveling paradigm of HP bloat is just bland power creep.

Yeah, you get to fight not-Balrogs and not-Kaiju, but they are just increased bags of HP to match your increased bag of HP. With powers to match your new powers.

And you are hitting it with your best attack the same way you did to that Troll when you were 4th level.

No DM fiat need enter into it in a E6 version. Such monsters would need to be fought with big traps, teamwork, guile, and most likely siege weaponry.

A very different type of "high level" challenge.

Somehow many other games that do not follow D&D's current leveling paradigm seem to give people years of great play in what would be in 5e terms a "single tier of play".

It's not just about the power. I get a very different experience.

I'm sure you do.

While others like me feel that it is just bland power creep, there is no denying that there is a subset of players that really like the kind of game that 5e becomes at high levels.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

They've already given them to us, kinda sorta. The epic boons and such are a way to represent epic mechanics without more levels. I don't think they will make a book for it this edition.

It could, but I'm doubtful that they will go that way.

To jump off from there, I really love the way 5e handles Epic play. DMG 230-232. Most people participating here are probably familiar with these rules, but some may not be (especially some just reading). In summary, you can handle epic progression like this:

1) Every 30,000 XP beyond 355,000 XP (20th Level), you gain your choice of one of the following:
-An Epic Boon (like super-feats--lots of cool and powerful advancement options here)
-An Ability Score Increase (+2 as normal)
-A Feat
2) There is no limit to advancement in this manner
3) Your Ability Scores are no longer capped at 20, and can go all the way to 30.

So 5e's Epic Rules already allow you to theoretically end up with 30s in all of your Ability Scores, every Feat you qualify for, and a bunch of cool Epic Boons giving you stuff like extra 9th level spell slots, proficiency in all skills, literally immortality (agelessness), etc.

I'm sure that there are people who just won't find that satisfying (is there a strong desire for the character sheet to say "Level 22"?), but I honestly think most people clamoring for epic levels haven't really read that section. Not only is it really cool and makes advancement by PC races feel different than demon lords and gods (PC races don't keep getting HD and proficiency bonus--they get more focused benefits), but it's super easy to customize by simply adding (or removing) more Epic Boons. For example, I think there should be a Boon to allow attunement to another magic item in my game. Poof done.

I'm someone who actually liked 3e Epic Level Handbook in theory (in practice it was...difficult to work with). But 5e's version is, in my opinion, the best version of epic rules the game has ever had.

One thing that they could easily do would be to publish an expanded list of Epic Boons. A couple more pages of Epic Boons and it should be able to work for almost anyone. For those who want some of the 4e Epic Destiny kind of stuff, there's no reason that couldn't be represented in Epic Boons. I suppose 3e Epic Spellcasting and higher level spell slots wouldn't work with Epic Boons, but that's all I can think of off of the top of my head.

 

[Yaarel]

To jump off from there, I really love the way 5e handles Epic play. DMG 230-232. Most people participating here are probably familiar with these rules, but some may not be (especially some just reading). In summary, you can handle epic progression like this:

1) Every 30,000 XP beyond 355,000 XP (20th Level), you gain your choice of one of the following:
-An Epic Boon (like super-feats--lots of cool and powerful advancement options here)
-An Ability Score Increase (+2 as normal)
-A Feat
2) There is no limit to advancement in this manner
3) Your Ability Scores are no longer capped at 20, and can go all the way to 30.

So 5e's Epic Rules already allow you to theoretically end up with 30s in all of your Ability Scores, every Feat you qualify for, and a bunch of cool Epic Boons giving you stuff like extra 9th level spell slots, proficiency in all skills, literally immortality (agelessness), etc.

I'm sure that there are people who just won't find that satisfying (is there a strong desire for the character sheet to say "Level 22"?), but I honestly think most people clamoring for epic levels haven't really read that section. Not only is it really cool and makes advancement by PC races feel different than demon lords and gods (PC races don't keep getting HD and proficiency bonus--they get more focused benefits), but it's super easy to customize by simply adding (or removing) more Epic Boons. For example, I think there should be a Boon to allow attunement to another magic item in my game. Poof done.

I'm someone who actually liked 3e Epic Level Handbook in theory (in practice it was...difficult to work with). But 5e's version is, in my opinion, the best version of epic rules the game has ever had.

One thing that they could easily do would be to publish an expanded list of Epic Boons. A couple more pages of Epic Boons and it should be able to work for almost anyone. For those who want some of the 4e Epic Destiny kind of stuff, there's no reason that couldn't be represented in Epic Boons. I suppose 3e Epic Spellcasting and higher level spell slots wouldn't work with Epic Boons, but that's all I can think of off of the top of my head.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the epic boons, it helps me consider it.

The main difficulty is, the class stops advancing. So while the "character level" might be 22, the class is stuck at 20.

Maybe it is better to characterize epic as a kind of prestige class. For example. Wizard 20 / Immortal 2. This would be kinda 4e-ish like epic destinies. But 4e helped focus character concepts a bit more helpfully.

Also, the boons are mixed bag. Some are potent, some are terrible.

Immortality should be given for free, by merit of becoming epic at level 21.

I guess the class can kinda improve, such as using a boon to give Wizard features an extra spellcasting. I am unsure how I feel about this.

 

[Stormonu]

Maybe it is better to characterize epic as a kind of prestige class. For example. Wizard 20 / Immortal 2. This would be kinda 4e-ish like epic destinies. But 4e helped focus character concepts a bit more helpfully.

I suspect the best way to handle it would be a set of subclasses starting at level 21 - riffing from the BECMI Immortal rules, perhaps they could be Dynast (power and stronghold), Polymath (master of martial, subterfuge, divine and arcane), Demigod (gather worshippers), Eternal Champion (super-powerful non-stop adventuring), Planeswalker (travelling the multiverse), etc.

It would then be possible to built thematic boons/abilities so the player can chart their epic course, as well as build opponents and challenges appropriate for each destiny.

 

[Alzrius]

One thing that they could easily do would be to publish an expanded list of Epic Boons. A couple more pages of Epic Boons and it should be able to work for almost anyone.

To be fair, the third-party community has been putting out things like More Epic Boons (affiliate link) for a little while now.

 

[Yaarel]

I suspect the best way to handle it would be a set of subclasses starting at level 21 - riffing from the BECMI Immortal rules, perhaps they could be Dynast (power and stronghold), Polymath (master of martial, subterfuge, divine and arcane), Demigod (gather worshippers), Eternal Champion (super-powerful non-stop adventuring), Planeswalker (travelling the multiverse), etc.

It would then be possible to built thematic boons/abilities so the player can chart their epic course, as well as build opponents and challenges appropriate for each destiny.

Actually, with Strixhaven introducing archetypes that several classes can share, this can work well for 4e-style epic destinies as 5e class archetypes. Each archetype would have the flavor of the means of immortality, some transcend the physical body, some become undead, some become archfey, some become artificial construct, and so on. Having the levels alternate class, archetype, and boons, could work well.