D&D General My Problem(s) With Halflings, and How To Create Engaging/Interesting Fantasy Races

[Gammadoodler]

I would say the better analogy is this. There is a pizzeria that offers various pizza. 4 are sold as specials (including Hawaiian), 5 are on the regular menu, and the rest are available by special order.

Several pizzas on the regular menu have outsold Hawaiian pizzas, some consistently. Some people are suggesting changing the recipe for the Hawaiian, some are suggesting that the Hawaiian be put on the regular menu and replaced by one of the pizzas that sell better. A couple of people are even advocating that Hawaiian is a niche taste, and should be available by special order only, like tabaxi and aasimar.

Despite this, people who like Hawaiian pizza are accusing those people of seeking to ban Hawaiian pizza. Or that they secretly hate Hawaiian pizza. Or that they don’t understand Hawaiian pizza. Some are saying that they don’t like pepperoni, so we should replace pepperoni instead, despite pepperoni being more popular than Hawaiian.

You are not going to trick me into advocating in favor of Hawaiian pizza. Some things are just wrong.

 

[Oofta]

You are not going to trick me into advocating in favor of Hawaiian pizza. Some things are just wrong.

I may have to rethink never permanently ignoring a poster. Anyone who doesn't appreciate pineapple on pizza at least occasionally is dead to me.

 

[Chaosmancer]

What did you google to get 8,200 ft for the minimum height of a mountain? The first bunch of links I turned up said either 1,000ft or 2,000ft being common definitions. In any case, the tallest of the Appalachian mountains for example is only 6,684 ft, and the Appalachian mountains apparently average around 3000ft.

Minimum height for a mountain? It seemed like it could be off, but that's why I mentioned I googled it

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The trick is to have both pineapple and blue cheese: they complement each other really well!

 

[Gammadoodler]

The trick is to have both pineapple and blue cheese: they complement each other really well!

It seems as though our pizza Venn diagram has no intersection.

 

[jayoungr]

if they are that common in adventuring parties have more things to pull from other than bilbo/frodo clone number 9455 would be immensely useful.

Just because it says that most halflings have peaceful lives, it doesn't follow that the only possible halfling character concept is "Bilbo/Frodo clone."

The PHB offers three different common societal options for halflings: (1) coming from a small farming community; (2) living among other races, as in a city; (3) traveling as nomads, either in wagons or on boats. It also offers three sample motivations for halflings to become adventurers: to defend their homes, support their friends, or explore the world. By mixing and matching these concepts, you can make plenty of characters that are not clones of Bilbo/Frodo--and that's without even touching on the idea of inventing your own stuff, which is allowed and even encouraged in D&D.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Such as...?

Ruining immersion, setting up expectations that cannot be met, limiting options until there is no where to go in the story. Like I said, it isn't as easy to do, but it can happen.

Are a lot of DMs not allowing that rule?

Why are you asking me? I've actually never seen it allowed, even though I allow it myself. It is an optional rule though, and that's the point. Halfling Nimbleness isn't an optional rule.

Same with reclusive elves when they don't leave their elfin towers. Same with reclusive dwarfs who don't leave their fortresses.

You're upset when halflings mingle with other races; you're upset when they're alone.

Sorry, but no. Those reclusive dwarf's in their fortress? You know where it is, and it alters the landscape by being their. They likely had a trade deal in the past before shutting their doors. And if their doors reopen they offer resources otherwise unattainable.

I never really see a society of elves in a single tower, generally it is a single wizard, and that is much more a class trope of the reclusive hermit, but has the same thing. Get in, get an audience and you can gain important information or magical aid.

A halfling village is just a human village with shorter people. And more idyllic. Any information you might get would be a snippet from an old tale, just like you would get at a human village if you went looking for old tales and rumors. They are functionally identical.

Which shire is it, and which region? I don't assume that every one of them is the same.

Why not? All I did was use descriptors and such from the base halfling text. That is the standard shire, as far as the text seems to state. So, why shouldn't that describe most of them?

Maybe there is a unique one, but I can't account for every single homebrewed idea in the game.

I've already given you several roles. You've said they don't count because of reasons.

Mostly because you were either counting them or they were things that didn't rise to the level of a racial role.

I mean, "halflings are bat-fishers" is a fun detail, but I don't see how that really is going to shape how they interact with the larger world. Or that they cook, which I guess is unlike every other race in the game, even though "chef" is a feat and a background and cooks utensils exist for everyone, and halflings have no special access to any of that.

Yes, that's true. However, here you are, changing a bit of lore you don't like while at the same time saying that it's wrong to do that for halflings because it's not canon.

Wrong. Again. I have never said that changing halfling lore is wrong. I am saying that replying to a charge that halfling lore needs changed overall with "but you can homebrew it for your own personal table" is a bad argument.

Why is it that I cannot hold the company responsible to do their jobs and create at least some solid lore for one of their supposedly most important races? Why must I immediately bow and scrape and not point out any deficiencies just because I am a person with a brain and can make up my own stuff instead of using the official material? Why does homebrew excuse bad material?

We already had this discussion. MTF describes them as gathering lore.

Unwittingly. By accident. That does not make someone a lorekeeper. I'm not a baseball card collector just because I happen to find them while buying gum.

They're exploring the unknown. It clearly says that in MTF. I have better things to do then read the entire book to you.

Okay, if their are entire tribes of halfings which take on a nomadic lifestyle to go into unknown depths of jungles, ruins and mountains, then I will concede that those halflings are adventurers.

But if they are just nomads, like the PHB described, then they aren't adventurers. They are nomads.

All this just proves, once again, that you haven't actually read the bit on halflings or given it any thought or paid attention to what people have been saying about them on this thread. Hint: we've been saying that they're nice. Not that they're perfect, pure, or wholesome.

You know what? I give up. I'm tired of this. I'm now convinced you're just trolling me, because that's the only possible explanation for how you don't understand or remember things that have been explained to you what, at least a half-dozen times so far. Go forth and never play a halfling. I literally don't care. Just stop telling people halflings are objectively bad when, in reality, that's just your opinion.

You know, thinking back on it, you never did respond to when I quoted Bedir Than again, when he said that halflings "are the only race that believes in peace, tranquility, joy, happiness"

So go ahead, assume I am a terrible troll that simply refuses to think or read anything. That no one has made a claim so extreme like halflings being the only race to embody joy and happiness in the entire game. I know what people have been arguing, because I do read them. And if people keep making insane claims like that, I am going to keep challenging them on that.

 

[Chaosmancer]

My players don't want to play firbolgs, they want to play halflings.

The lore is irrelevant, since it doesn't crop up.

Then since the lore is irrelevant you won't care if it is changed.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Man..I really don't know how to make this any clearer. There is no proof. You are wrong because you seem to think that there is proof

Fantasy settings are fantasy..
fiction..
pretend..
not real..
make believe..
imaginary..

Fantasy races are also fantasy..
fiction..
pretend..
you get the idea I hope.

The notion that there is a wrong way to make believe is silly.

And to be clear..I've not called you names. I've described your attitude as arrogant and elitist. And I've done so because I cannot figure out another way to reconcile how someone thinks they can objectively judge how people pretend things as if there is a right and wrong way to do so.

It's just nonsense.

Wow, I shouldn't laugh, but really? You want to call me arrogant, but here you are dismissing thousands of peoples jobs, because "make believe" means anything goes.

I mean, that is why absolutely no one disliked the endings to Rise of Skywalker or Game of Thrones, right? Because they are make believe and anything goes, and things like consistent tone or thematic elements are just elitist nonsense words. The writers who spend literal years crafting their worlds and making them coherent are just wasting their time right? Because you can smash any two things together in make-believe and that works just fine.

Yeah, I know that DnD, hobbits, halflings, LoTR ect ect ect, aren't real stories of the real world. I know it is all pretend. But acting like being pretend means they can be shoddily made and that's somehow not something I can criticize or point out is frankly bizarre. There are entire industries, worth billions of dollars, that work to make sure make-believe stories are well-written, consistent, and have the proper tone and elements. Does my home DnD game raise to that level? No. Does Dungeons and Dragons, the most important Tabletop Role-Playing Game in the western world (maybe the world) and an IP probably worth at least a billion dollars rise to that level? Yeah, I think it does.

And, despite what you may want to believe, baseline DnD has a specific flavor, a specific genre of Fantasy. And that genre doesn't play nice with the themes and elements important to making hobbits work. CAN you play a game using DnD rules set in Middle-Earth? Sure. You could. But they don't mesh well.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because I'm not wrong about the fact that I, and a lot of people, think halflings are perfectly fine the way they are.

You don't get to decide for everyone else that halfling lore is bad.

No, I meant the point that all I care about are violent races that conquer people. You know, the actual accusation that you leveled at me.

Or the accusation that I just want to delete halflings and make them grimdark, when that is also wrong and not my position.

You know... the things I have directly proven you wrong on, but you want to focus on anything but that