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The problem with Evil races is not what you think

The traveller SRD at least has
TL 0-3 = Primitive
TL 4-6 = Industrial
TL 7-9 = Pre-Stellar
TL 10-11 = Early Stellar
etc...
Yeah, I just don't remember a lot of judgmental logic or wordings in the original game. I mean, it was written in the mid 70's, there's bound to be some dubious terminology in there someplace.

And I think you could validly consider whether its one simple single-axis linear scale is a very good model too. Even back in the day it was noted that it only really modeled the Imperium. Of course, that was the only milieu the game envisaged really. It rated the 3rd Imperium at TL15 and the Zhodani Consulate at TL14, but the Zhodani also have psionics, which aren't even factored into the scale. Beyond that their system cannot model something like, say, a society based purely on biotech. Yet sci-fi is rife with speculation about just such possibilities. That was always one of Traveller's shortcomings.
 

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pemerton

Legend
@AbdulAlhazred's post about rates of social change and diffusion of technologies makes it basically unnecessary for me to post anything on that topic.

When I was Googling to see if I could find a copy of Hodgson's essay online (I couldn't - hence my pasting above from a raw scan) I found a review published by a younger historian who had known him, and who (I gather from the review) works primarily on Africa - the review was published in The International Journal of African Historical Studies (v 27(2), 1994). One criticism that the review makes is of Hodgson's failure to incorporate Africa fully into his conception of world-history.

Whether that criticism is sound or not is for historians to judge (and I'm not one); but it's clear that this particular reviewer did not think that including Africa would change the basic logic of Hodgson's analysis of social power, diffusion of technology, and explanation of European domination in the modern era. I think one can also readily infer from the review that the reviewer would not find the notion of "primitivness" at all illuminating as an analytic tool for studying African history.
 

Ixal

Hero
One of the things you have to appreciate about change is that it can be non-linear. So, for 100's of millennia humans wandered around the world chipping stones, hunting, and gathering. During this ENTIRE TIME there was cultural change, undoubtedly, but the effectiveness of the instrumentalities of society didn't change much. An early modern human from 250,000 YA and one from 40,000 YA probably had fairly similar kit. It undoubtedly got somewhat refined and adapted to a wider range of environments, but progress was slow, almost non-existent.

At some point, people began to grow food. Nobody is entirely sure when this happened, certainly it became a prevalent practice some 12,000 YA in the Fertile Crescent (headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in eastern Anatolia most likely). It isn't clear exactly how long the transition period was, but at some point some people reached a critical threshold and in that region society rapidly transformed. Now, rapid might mean it took 20,000 years to go from "I planted a seed, look something grew that I can eat, this is a good idea." to Katal Huyuk. This is part of the point being made by Hodgson in @pemerton's quotation.

So, this is an uneven process. It is probably analogous to a phase transition in physics. Nothing seems to change as water gets colder and colder, but at some point one location, due to some variation in local state, begins to freeze. Once the change starts, it can proceed quite rapidly, the new ordering of molecules spreads throughout the system. This phase change may start in multiple locations too, and the resulting ice might have boundaries between crystals, each organized in a different orientation. Likewise agriculture happened in one or a few specific locations and then spread.

When you compare cultural change or diffusion during a period when the 'state' of society didn't change much, vs a situation where such rapid change did happen, you are talking about two different processes which happen at different timescales. Not only that, but if society A is in the new and more rapidly changing state, then obviously society B, which is still in the old state, hardly changes at all by comparison. So Sumer leaped to an urbanized state, but Europe remained in the old state for another several thousand years until agriculture was established there, and its own internal rate of progress was still stone age, which by comparison is basically no change at all on the timescales in question.

Likewise with sub-saharan Africa. Its technology was probably not that much different from Medieval Europe. They had iron, cities, roads, public works, etc. (at least in some areas), state structures, etc. Meanwhile Europe, by 1600 had started a rapid transformation. So we see that it changed radically from 1600 to 1800, but Africa changed maybe as much as Europe did from 1000 to 1200, which is not a heck of a lot in overall terms. There need not be much other explanation. Diffusion takes centuries, so when you say agriculture diffused to Europe, yes, over 2000 years or more. It might take 500 or 1000 more years for Africa to achieve what Europe has now by diffusion alone. But at our accelerated rate of change, we will be (perhaps, if you are optimistic) vastly more advanced still, and one would assume that the gap would only ever grow, and not shrink. This isn't an indictment of one society vs another, it is just the nature of non-linear change, aka phase changes.

Another thing to consider in terms of 'advancement' is that you only have, or are considering, one yardstick and one possible sequence by which 'progress' might happen. We don't know how many possible pathways there are which could lead to similar phase changes in society. Not all of them may be technological, or it may be possible to base them on entirely different aspects of technology. However, once one society stumbles upon a scenario in which they achieve non-linear phase changing transformation, then if that change involves an increase in means, improved instrumentality, it is likely to abort progress on all other paths. Thus it is easy to imagine that European civilization was 'superior' or 'more advanced' in some fashion, but it is equally likely that, given time, any society might have emerged into a new form of some kind and entered into a non-linear rate of change scenario. We just don't know, and will perhaps never know.

So, here's an alternate way of looking at 'progress'. Imagine it is a lot like a maze. Each society wanders through the maze, and once in a while one reaches a location where they can find a brushhog. From that point on, the maze is no obstacle to them, they go on in whatever direction circumstances dictate at a much more rapid rate, and pretty soon the whole maze is nothing but pathways leading wherever they were going. Any other solutions to the maze that might have existed are now moot.
And what exactly has that to do with using the word primitive to describe a snapshot in time where "one group of people have not found the brushhog yet while everyone else has"? That is just the state of things at that point in time.
 

Monadology

Explorer
Does anyone actually use 'primitive' that way? When the Grippli are being characterized as 'primitive', it seems implausible that the author is just telling the reader that they haven't found a metaphorical brush hog yet. If you are proposing this new sense of 'primitive' be adopted, you should be objecting to the fact that the Grippli are characterized as primitive but the Cormyr are not. Cormyr doesn't seem like it has found a brush hog either.

On a non-pluralist understanding of brush hogs (e.g. something like industrialization is the only kind) it's even less plausible that the primitive/advanced distinction maps onto a binary cut-off. That would make all pre-industrial societies equally primitive, and I hardly think that's how the term gets used. EDIT: Also, we may as well just use the more direct descript or 'pre-industrial' in this case.
 


Monadology

Explorer
Yes?
For example just look at the Traveller tech scale posted above.
'Anyone' here is not referring to literally anyone, it's referring to whether it is generally used that way by a plurality of people in some significant context. Especially relevant is whether it is used that way when cultures are described as 'primitive' in D&D books, a usage that you have been defending.

If you are only trying to defend the use of primitive in Traveller's tech-scale, well, OK. The conversation has shifted to something much narrower. In any case, my point that 'pre-industrial' is just a more direct descriptor is directly relevant to Traveller's tech scale. Using 'primitive,' (a word with a lot of loaded connotations) over a word that is much more to the point and lacks those connotations seems an easy choice. Just use the latter.
 

Ixal

Hero
'Anyone' here is not referring to literally anyone, it's referring to whether it is generally used that way by a plurality of people in some significant context. Especially relevant is whether it is used that way when cultures are described as 'primitive' in D&D books, a usage that you have been defending.

If you are only trying to defend the use of primitive in Traveller's tech-scale, well, OK. The conversation has shifted to something much narrower. In any case, my point that 'pre-industrial' is just a more direct descriptor is directly relevant to Traveller's tech scale. Using 'primitive,' (a word with a lot of loaded connotations) over a word that is much more to the point and lacks those connotations seems an easy choice. Just use the latter.
You can of course look up dictonaries.
For example what comes up on google:

adjective
  1. relating to, denoting, or preserving the character of an early stage in the evolutionary or historical development of something.
  • relating to or denoting a preliterate, non-industrial society or culture characterized by simple social and economic organization.​
    "primitive people​
[...]


noun
noun: primitive; plural noun: primitives
  1. 1.
    a person belonging to a preliterate, non-industrial society.
    "reports of travellers and missionaries described contemporary primitives"

Google uses Oxford I think, but you can get similar results from Cambridge or Marrian-Webster. Primitive is used to described technological development.
 
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Monadology

Explorer
You can of course look up dictonaries.
For example what comes up on google:

adjective
  1. relating to, denoting, or preserving the character of an early stage in the evolutionary or historical development of something.
  • relating to or denoting a preliterate, non-industrial society or culture characterized by simple social and economic organization.​
    "primitive people​
[...]


noun
noun: primitive; plural noun: primitives
  1. 1.
    a person belonging to a preliterate, non-industrial society.
    "reports of travellers and missionaries described contemporary primitives"

Google uses Oxford I think, but you can get similar results from Cambridge or Marrian-Webster. Primitive is used to described technological development.
'Preliterate, pre-industrial' =/= pre-industrial. You could actually read the definitions you've posted. What does preliterate mean? Well:

preliterate​

[ pree-lit-er-it ]

adjective Anthropology.
lacking a written language; nonliterate
occurring before the development or use of writing.

There are lots of literate, pre-industrial cultures. Hence why Renaissance Europe is never described as primitive. No one uses 'primitive' to just mean 'pre-industrial.'
 

And what exactly has that to do with using the word primitive to describe a snapshot in time where "one group of people have not found the brushhog yet while everyone else has"? That is just the state of things at that point in time.
My point was that if one society is 99.9% of the way to industrialization, it will still look like what you choose to label as 'primitive' compared to one which crossed over that line, even a mere century earlier, which is nothing in the timescale of pre-industrial change, but is an eon to an industrial society. That is on top of the "no single path" aspect, in which you simply cannot put everyone on a line and say one is behind or ahead of the other.

I mean, AT NO TIME, have the Chinese EVER considered themselves 'behind' Europe or the West generally. Yet, even today, that charge is leveled against them, and they were practically universally reviled and labeled as a sort of human plague only 100 years ago. Yet they have one of the most advanced cultures on Earth, and have had for THREE THOUSAND YEARS continuously! So, at one time, from about 1700 to the mid 20th Century, China was in a politically disunified state, and Europe briefly surpassed them in arms manufacturing, which allowed the colonial powers to militarily dominate China.

How does that fit in your model of 'advanced' and 'primitive'? Europe called the Chinese 'primitive', yet had nothing like their ceramics industry, or numerous other industries, not to even mention that China was still far ahead in finance, and actually pretty close to Europe's equal in manufacturing for most of those 350 years. These labels were simply invented so that Europeans could pretend that their exploitation of the world had some good will motive. We really don't need to perpetuate those lies, do we?
 

pemerton

Legend
In any case, my point that 'pre-industrial' is just a more direct descriptor is directly relevant to Traveller's tech scale. Using 'primitive,' (a word with a lot of loaded connotations) over a word that is much more to the point and lacks those connotations seems an easy choice. Just use the latter.
This is something I've had to grapple with in teaching.

I prefer non-industrial to pre-industrial because the latter tends to import a notion of trajectory - whereas I think it is an open theoretical question whether such a trajectory exists (obviously Hegel and Marx, among others, thinks it does; but not all social theorists or world historians agree), and so prefer a terminology that does not seem to presuppose an answer to that question.

That said, I do use pre-modern. I spend about half-an-hour in class explaining the pitfalls of modern/modernity as a term of art and explaining why, nevertheless, I find myself unable to dispense with it.
 

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