Discussing Sword & Sorcery and RPGs

[pemerton]

You might find these posts I wrote around a month ago interesting. They're about anti-existentialist passages in the AD&D 1e DMG compared to the existentialism in the early Elric stories. One weakness is that I don't have a very good grasp of what existentialism means

Thanks, I'll have a read. I don't know Elric super-well but do have a reasonable grasp of existentialism, and so between the two of us we probably have the right skill-set!

That sounds very similar to most Westerns.

EDIT: The Conan story Beyond the Black River is very much a Western with a frontier and Picts as stand-ins for Native Americans. I think I remember reading that towards the end of his life Howard was growing tired of sword & sorcery and wanted to transition more to Westerns.

There's also a lot of similarity with the post-apocalyptic. Upthread @Snarf Zagyg described Mad Max Fury Road as S&S. I'd consider all the later Mad Max movies to be essentially Westerns.

I think there are similarities to Westerns, but also contrasts.

I agree that Beyond the Black River is a Western. It's probably also my least-favourite REH Conan story (which I know puts me at odds with the critics). But compare Beyond the Black River to The Tower of the Elephant or the opening sequence of Queen of the Black Coast - instead of Conan as a critic of "civilisation", he is a champion of it, helping the colonists spread it. The thematic orientation is completely reversed.

If REH wanted to write a story in defence of colonialism, it would have made more sense to have the "vibrant, energetic" colonists taking over Stygia or some "ancient" and "decadent" land. (That said, from memory the Beyond the Black River Picts do use snakes in their magic, like Stygians. But they are not a "decadent" peoples.)

 

[pemerton]

I'm struggling to get my head around the idea that gratuitous female nudity isn't popular with the masses. Here in the UK our most popular newspaper, The Sun, featured topless women on page 3 until 2015.

I didn't know The Sun had reversed its publication policy in that respect.

And I agree. This is why I'm having to work to make sense of these references to "transgressive" and "offence" - because it seems as if we're trying to equate lad's mags to the avant garde.

 

[Blue Orange]

I didn't know The Sun had reversed its publication policy in that respect.

And I agree. This is why I'm having to work to make sense of these references to "transgressive" and "offence" - because it seems as if we're trying to equate lad's mags to the avant garde.

It was transgressive in 1935. 1985 in some parts of this country.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm struggling to get my head around the idea that gratuitous female nudity isn't popular with the masses. Here in the UK our most popular newspaper, The Sun, featured topless women on page 3 until 2015.

I think you are aware it is utterly unthinkable in the current predominantly American media culture. The RPGs we discuss on this and other major forums are so thoroughly sanitized it's as if Disney was the state religion...

 

[Yora]

Of course it's popular. But you're not supposed to. It immediately disqualifies a work from most segments of mainstream media and public appreciation.

 

[CapnZapp]

Of course it's popular. But you're not supposed to. It immediately disqualifies a work from most segments of mainstream media and public appreciation.

If you mean appreciation in public (as in the media discourse), that is so.

It's just that your phrase can be read as arguing the public doesn't appreciate nudity, which is the exact opposite of the point made earlier.

 

[Aldarc]

I think you are aware it is utterly unthinkable in the current predominantly American media culture. The RPGs we discuss on this and other major forums are so thoroughly sanitized it's as if Disney was the state religion...

It's almost as if it's a corporate product created for the widest market of consumers possible.

 

[CapnZapp]

It's almost as if it's a corporate product created for the widest market of consumers possible.

It's almost as if you are okay with every rpg product being targeted towards the widest market even at the cost of becoming the blandest.

But no, your explanation does not hold water. Just because corporate interests are involved does not explain the extreme alignment of our hobby's products.

Pick literally any other market and it is trivial to pick out products that don't care someone just might get offended.

Ttrpgs are in an extremely eager-to-please phase where sanding down rough edges is paramount.

That makes me a bit sad, especially if we return the discussion to this particular genre.

If I only get to pick a single genre of fantasy roleplaying that stands to benefit from some deliciously politically incorrect b-movie goodness, it is Sword & Sorcery!

Do I think Hasbro is the company that will publish such a product?

No.

But you're saying Hasbro and it's corporate ilk is why no such products can't even be contemplated and why some posters react as if I punched them in the face. You're giving them far too much credit.

 

[Aldarc]

It's almost as if you are okay with every rpg product being targeted towards the widest market even at the cost of becoming the blandest.

But no, your explanation does not hold water. Just because corporate interests are involved does not explain the extreme alignment of our hobby's products.

Pick literally any other market and it is trivial to pick out products that don't care someone just might get offended.

Ttrpgs are in an extremely eager-to-please phase where sanding down rough edges is paramount.

That makes me a bit sad, especially if we return the discussion to this particular genre.

If I only get to pick a single genre of fantasy roleplaying that stands to benefit from some deliciously politically incorrect b-movie goodness, it is Sword & Sorcery!

Do I think Hasbro is the company that will publish such a product?

No.

But you're saying Hasbro and it's corporate ilk is why no such products can't even be contemplated and why some posters react as if I punched them in the face. You're giving them far too much credit.

You have a terrible habit of confusing explanations with personal opinion or preferences. Cut it out.

 

[Argyle King]

I've always felt that sword & sorcery is less "pretty" than typical fantasy.

Reading through Howard's Conan, he describes how things smell/feel/etc, and it's more "real" than idealized in how things are described.

It's not fantasy at all, but an example would be comparing the typical Star Trek ship to the typical Star Wars ship. Trek is usually clean, orderly, and pristine; the Millennium Falcon feels lived in.

Likewise, in Lord of the Rings, the orcs/villains are the people who are dirty, covered in grime, and so-forth. In a sword & sorcery story, that description might describe the heroes.

I think it might be argued that sword & sorcery also has an element of horror to it sometimes. There's a darker underlying tone, similar to some Arthurian tales or darker fairy tales -but where those stories embrace the fantastical, sword & sorcery embraces the struggle of the protagonists against those darker elements.