D&D General Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings of Color

[Laurefindel]

The answer to that question is: YES. That's the thing about ethnicities (and any other social group), they're all fundamentally socially constructed - they're imagined communities in the words of at least one social scientist. And in a world in which there's any form of diversity, particularly the mixing of families of many defined ethnicities, your membership in one or more has to be significantly influenced by self-definition.

I don’t think your post implies that strongly, but social constructs =/= imagined representations of things.

as humans, we are social beings, and any convention we may have is by definition a social construct. Our ability to speak is physical but language is a social construct. It is imagined in the sense that things don’t have intrinsic identities with a « true name » or something, but it is not an imagined and misleading notion. Language is also not a bad thing even if it is a social construct.

ethnicity is part genetic baggage and part social construct (cultural identity) but it doesn’t mean it should be dismissed as imaginary.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

My point is that it isn't a problem to be solved, it's a problem that needs to be recognized as not a problem and firmly dismissed when it comes up. There are a lot of really neat rules in Tasha's, and I'm 100% behind letting people reassign their lineage ASIs as needed-- because, unfortunately, the total is not uniform and is thus a balance factor-- but the "custom lineage" stuff, as a player-facing option, doesn't belong there.

The game, the game world, either has different "races" in it, or it does not. Whichever way a particular game world breaks on that question, the custom lineage rules are corrosive to it.

I disagree completely. The game is more fun when players have more agency, especially interns of character creation.

 

[Casimir Liber]

I googled across this statblock for a certain kind of Duende.

DUENDE​

Fata Diminuto, Neutral

Esta bondadosa y diminuta raza de fatas aladas parecen versiones ideales de jóvenes elfos dotados con alas de mariposa, si bien su piel es verde. Los duendes son juguetones y traviesos, mas carecen de malicia, por lo que se dedican a realizar diabluras inocentes a sus amigos. Es difícil engañar a un duende, ya que son maestros de la invisibilidad y pueden conocer el corazón de aquellos a los que tocan.

Origen: Reglas básicas
Categoría: Monstruo
Clase de armadura: 15 (armadura de cuero)
Puntos de Golpe: 2 (1d4)
Valor de desafío: 1/4 (50 PX)
Velocidad: 10 pies, 40 pies volando

Fue	Des	Con	Int	Sab	Car
3 (-4)	18 (+4)	10 (+0)	14 (+2)	13 (+1)	11 (+0)

Habilidades: Percepción +3, Sigilo +8
Sentidos: Percepción pasiva 13
Idiomas: Común, élfico, silvano

Acciones​

---

Espada larga. Ataque de arma cuerpo a cuerpo: +2 al ataque, alcance 5 pies, un objetivo. Impacto: 1 punto de daño cortante.
Arco corto. Ataque de arma a distancia: +6 al ataque, alcance 40/160 pies, un objetivo. Impacto: 1 punto de daño perforante y el objetivo debe superar una tirada de salvación de Constitución CD 10 para no quedar envenenado durante 1 minuto. Si el resultado de la tirada es 5 o menos, el objetivo envenenado cae inconsciente durante ese tiempo o hasta que reciba daño u otra criatura realice una acción para zarandearlo y despertarlo.
Vista interior. El duende toca a una criatura y mágicamente conoce su estado emocional. Si el objetivo falla una tirada de salvación de Carisma CD 10, el duende también conoce su alineamiento. Los celestiales, infernales y no muertos fallan automáticamente la tirada de salvación.
Invisibilidad. El duende se vuelve invisible mágicamente hasta que ataque, lance un conjuro o pierda la concentración (como si fuera un conjuro). El equipo que lleve puesto o que transporte se vuelve invisible con él.



Because of the D&D jargon, I can actually understand much of this. I am unsure if the writeup is mythologically accurate or not.

Where this creature is a master of invisibility (?), I am guessing the mythologically accurate concept is really becoming ethereal, reverting to a spirit form, but again I am unfamiliar with the lore to know one way or an other.

Similar to D&D ghosts, I would like D&D fey to be able to "manifest" physically into the Material Plane, and then revert back to the Feywild Plane.

(In Norse and Scandinavian concepts, only certain powerful beings would be able to do this, not all of them. In some stories, they can get stuck in the materialization, sometimes because they are too young to know how to return, and sometimes a human mage prevents them from returning. But all of the beings can see and travel subtlely among humans in the Material Plane. In the Norse and Scandinavian concepts, the nature beings arent actually in an other plane. The nature being is in the Material Plane, as a disembodied mind. The mind can interact with other minds, and can manifest. But perhaps a D&D Feywild that closely overlaps and observes the Material Plane and its goings on, can represent this interactive mindscape.)

Interesting. I need to sleep now - and was playing DnD tonight and must do tax as well. Will think about where and how is the best way to collaborate on this. a wiki structure works well (I have made 100,000+ wikipedia edits)

 

[Laurefindel]

For me, D&D groups of both men and women are normal. Except for one-on-ones, I think it is accurate to say, every D&D game I have ever played has had one or more women in it.



Regarding "do it yourself", and afterward doublechecking it with appropriate scholars is probably doable. Most Spanish and Portugese scholars speak English, and I suspect many of them play D&D too!

True. What I meant with the opposite sex however, it that playing to another culture without falling into racist tropes is like playing to the opposite sex* without falling into sexist tropes. It’s not the same because the order of magnitude is not the same, but the same principles apply.

* or rather a sexual identity other than your own

 

[Laurefindel]

… and was playing DnD tonight and must do tax as well.

Ah, you must fill you character sheet!

 

[jmartkdr2]

Completely new stuff is easier to put across in a TV series or a book, because you don't need to know any of it going in. You learn by watching.

And I'm not saying I'm opposed to GMs inventing completely new and unfamiliar fantasy races and cultures. They can be great to explore in the game. If they're foreign to the characters, as well as the players, there's no reason to understand and you can discover them through play. But I like the homeland to be based on well-used tropes. I don't want homework for character creation.

Players can create too, and IME that makes for better introductions of new cultures.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For me, D&D groups of both men and women are normal. Except for one-on-ones, I think it is accurate to say, every D&D game I have ever played has had one or more women in it.

Lucky bastard!

Since ‘77, only 3 of my groups included women, and 2 of those had only one- in each case, the GF of another player.

 

[Oofta]

If you've been looking at the many recent attempts to get away from the term race by various RPG companies . . . WotC, Paizo, others, and various fan-designers on the DMsGuild . . . you'll see the terms lineage, ancestry, and heritage all used somewhat differently in place of race. As uncomfortable as the word makes me, there isn't a straightforward substitute. I agree with @MGibster, we're on a well-meaning euphemism treadmill, and these words are somewhat interchangeable . . . lineage, ancestry, and kin are straight up synonyms and refer to your familial inheritance (biology mostly, but . . .), while heritage refers more to cultural inheritance . . . but they are all used interchangeably somewhat in the real world.

Race is a word social scientists don't like, as it doesn't have a precise scientific meaning. It's a cultural construct, and refers to someone's background combining and confusing their cultural and biological inheritances alongside a healthy dose of stereotyping. But yet, it DOES have meaning, it IS a word we use in everyday life. It's use isn't wrong per se, but is easily made problematic, both in the real world and in our fantasy games.

Ethnicity IS a word social scientists like, and does have a defined, scientific meaning. Ethnicity refers to a social group that shares a culture and/or nationality, and can be associated with minor physiological differences like skin color. Of course, we use this word too confusingly in everyday life . . . if you were born to a white parent and an Asian parent, but have a black grandparent, you are born with dark skin and raised in mainstream American culture . . . what is your ethnicity? You'll be labeled by others as African-American, and you might even choose to identify that way yourself, but are you?

In traditional D&D, your race usually and mostly correlates with your biology, your species (if indeed, species is even the right word). Your subrace usually and mostly correlates with your ethnicity, your culture. We can probably agree that all elves are part of the same species, and that the major differences between wood elves and high elves is cultural. There are differences in skin tone, hair color, and other minor physiological differences, just as in the real world. Of course, It doesn't quite break down that perfectly, as each subrace often has abilities that don't seem cultural and go beyond skin color (etc).

I think we're going to be stumbling our way through this for a while now before we find our footing in the fantasy gaming and sci-fi scenes. I appreciate that we're having the conversations and that designers are putting forth ideas. We'll see what sticks.

Lineage makes sense to me for things like a Dhampir and potentially half-X creatures. A dwarf that becomes a dhampir is no longer a dwarf. Personally I'd use species instead of race and either remove half-whatever or with the big caveat that magic can override biology. I suspect that in the future sub-race will go away and instead use something like Tasha's system with an option list. Every race has some default features and then there's a list of options to choose from or ask your DM for a special variant.

Sub-race is similar to ethnicity but when you start associating hard physical traits to ethnicities, it's not great.

 

[BookTenTiger]

This conversation reminds me of when I was preparing for a Fantasy Western using the 5e rules. I wanted to keep in the races of the PHB, and at first I started to think, "Which culture lines up with each race?"

Then I realized that no matter how I arranged it, aligning any race with a single culture is problematic.

The real answer is to separate culture and race. If I have in my setting some Native American cultures, the people of that culture could be any race from the PHB. So could be the European settlers / colonizers. So could be the Chinese immigrants. And to me, that makes the setting a lot more exciting! Having a Cherokee Gnome and a Spanish Gnome together makes a lot more sense than saying each culture is somehow biologically different than each other.

 

[Tonguez]

Lineage makes sense to me for things like a Dhampir and potentially half-X creatures. A dwarf that becomes a dhampir is no longer a dwarf. Personally I'd use species instead of race and either remove half-whatever or with the big caveat that magic can override biology. I suspect that in the future sub-race will go away and instead use something like Tasha's system with an option list. Every race has some default features and then there's a list of options to choose from or ask your DM for a special variant.

Sub-race is similar to ethnicity but when you start associating hard physical traits to ethnicities, it's not great.

Around 48 percent of the Human Genome contains DNA that is not strictly human and is instead the remnants of ancient viruses. These viruses result in strings of genetic code that move around the genome and paste themselves into different bits, most a benign but when the body is unbalanced they can result in various diseases. If we look at Vampirism as a sentient magical virus that purposefully transforms a host then the Dhampir works as genetic lineage, the Dwarf host genome has been rewritten by the Vampire genes to create a new genetic line - that can even reproducer by infecting the blood of others.

Even Golems and Warforged work as Lineages if we are happy to accept constructed virus code existing in fantasy worlds (and if you already accept robot people then why not?)