Revolutions are Always Verbose: Effecting Change in the TTRPG Industry

[PsyzhranV2]

Lucky for me, you're not in charge.

People like you are the bane of essential workers everywhere. Ever stop to think about why so many cooks, construction workers, retail people, and other working-class and working poor are dead, while white collar workers jerk themselves off in Zoom meetings while sitting comfortably at home?

They should sit wherever they can afford the rent.

Really insensitive argument to make given alarmingly high (and rising) rent prices without a proportionate increase in average working class income, plus gentrification making the hard task of finding affordable housing even harder.

 

[TheSword]

It’s fascinating to see different cultures even similar ones like US and UK be so different about something like this.

 

[MGibster]

I think we’ve veered far beyond RPGs at this point.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:

I see some significant veering away from RPGs, and towards making the discussion personal. Please bring it back around on topic, and away from personal clashes, thanks.

 

[dragoner]

Two things-

"Some of those that work forces ..."
It is only troll feeding replying to people like that, nevertheless one can glean good info is that they don't care about the artists. Artists should internalize this, and move to take care of themselves ... by organizing.

I mean what we learn through all of it is that people buy the RPG's because of the writing, and providing a decent standard of living for the writers is the best way to encourage good writing.

 

[slobster]

This may or may not be relevant to this thread....

But one thing I've noticed as I've gotten peripherally involved in publishing indie material here in the US, is how much the internationalization of art and publishing services has undermined attempts by artists/writers/editors in the indie RPG space here in the US in hoping to demand a living wage.

I have artist acquaintances based in the US who charge between maybe $50 and $500, depending on size and complexity, for what I inexpertly consider a "professional" piece of original fantasy art. The kind of stuff you probably want or need to have pop up when someone is browsing rpgnet and deciding whether to spend money on your product. Knowing how much effort they put in (you aren't just sketching out a picture, you have to work to the client's brief, make changes if demanded, and you have to do the self-promotion to get the commission in the first place), I think it's absolutely unsustainable for them to do most of those commissions at that price, but hey, they gotta eat.

On the other hand, I have friends from other parts of the world where a dollar goes a lot further, and they might charge one half to one tenth of the price that I consider borderline unethical here in the US! But they are some really skilled illustrators, so you aren't skimping on quality, just paying less by going to where people work for less, and the internet makes that offshoring a lot easier.

The same pattern repeats for formatters, editors, even writers (there are some technical and copy writer contractors that one company I worked with uses in the Phillipines who speak/write impressively fluent English, and honestly they basically don't charge money at all, I was blown away).

Look, I know that people pointing out how globalism can lead to raw deals for workers is hardly new. I know this isn't an original observation, and I promise I'm not kvetching about how furriners are takin' our jerbs. I hope that the people who work for those lower prices are doing well, I wish them well, I just also don't know how to bring that into alignment with working for a better deal for creatives here in my home country where those books are actually put together and sold, and where people who love the hobby here just can't make a decent wage because the race to the bottom is too fierce.

 

[Jd Smith1]

You’re right. I’m not. People like you, that #humblebrag about your houses and new cars and dining overseas while you can’t be bothered to tip people the proper amount (given that in the US they are paid below minimum wage in tipped positions) and think you are clever when you are just free riders are the problem. I'm sure you hurt your arm patting yourself on the back when you managed to not pay any tithes in church because, hey, it's not like someone can make you, right?

Doing the right thing is for suckers, not for a self-made man!

10% is the right thing.

What? Are you trying to say that there are good places to eat that are, like, hole-in-the-walls? Maybe a off-the-beaten-track pho restaurant? Perhaps an amazing taco place?

You should definitely alert Yelp- in 2009.

Too much drama.

 

[Jd Smith1]

So you know better than to tip 10% (in the US), but you do it anyway?

10% is the correct amount. Now, if you're in a situation where you're in a large group, meaning your wait-staff is only dealing with your table alone, you generally pay 15%, but in a normal situation, yeah, 10% is fine.

 

[Jd Smith1]

People like you are the bane of essential workers everywhere. Ever stop to think about why so many cooks, construction workers, retail people, and other working-class and working poor are dead, while white collar workers jerk themselves off in Zoom meetings while sitting comfortably at home?

Dead? That's just silly. Can't comment on Zoom meeting or white collar habits, because I've no experience with either.

Really insensitive argument to make given alarmingly high (and rising) rent prices without a proportionate increase in average working class income, plus gentrification making the hard task of finding affordable housing even harder.

Rent varies wildly across the USA. But since RPG writers are not geographically bound to their occupation, a wise move would be to live where rent is low.

I dunno about it being 'insensitive'; so long as urban planning focuses on jamming as many people as possible into the smallest area possible in order to elevate real estate prices, rent is going to stay high in major urban sprawls, that's just a simple fact. Anyone doing long-term career planning should take that into consideration. I learned the hard way that area-cost-of-living is a key consideration when weighing the merits of various employment options. In a very real sense, less can be more.

 

[Jd Smith1]

This may or may not be relevant to this thread....

But one thing I've noticed as I've gotten peripherally involved in publishing indie material here in the US, is how much the internationalization of art and publishing services has undermined attempts by artists/writers/editors in the indie RPG space here in the US in hoping to demand a living wage.

I have artist acquaintances based in the US who charge between maybe $50 and $500, depending on size and complexity, for what I inexpertly consider a "professional" piece of original fantasy art. The kind of stuff you probably want or need to have pop up when someone is browsing rpgnet and deciding whether to spend money on your product. Knowing how much effort they put in (you aren't just sketching out a picture, you have to work to the client's brief, make changes if demanded, and you have to do the self-promotion to get the commission in the first place), I think it's absolutely unsustainable for them to do most of those commissions at that price, but hey, they gotta eat.

On the other hand, I have friends from other parts of the world where a dollar goes a lot further, and they might charge one half to one tenth of the price that I consider borderline unethical here in the US! But they are some really skilled illustrators, so you aren't skimping on quality, just paying less by going to where people work for less, and the internet makes that offshoring a lot easier.

The same pattern repeats for formatters, editors, even writers (there are some technical and copy writer contractors that one company I worked with uses in the Phillipines who speak/write impressively fluent English, and honestly they basically don't charge money at all, I was blown away).

Look, I know that people pointing out how globalism can lead to raw deals for workers is hardly new. I know this isn't an original observation, and I promise I'm not kvetching about how furriners are takin' our jerbs. I hope that the people who work for those lower prices are doing well, I wish them well, I just also don't know how to bring that into alignment with working for a better deal for creatives here in my home country where those books are actually put together and sold, and where people who love the hobby here just can't make a decent wage because the race to the bottom is too fierce.

It's not just overseas. I commissioned a couple pieces of fantasy art, and browsing the forums on DeviantArt (indie web site, not porn channel) I found people of commendable skill who were willing to do the job for pocket money. From the bios, these were people with a solid day job with art as a hobby.

The only solution is either A) Vastly increase demand

or B) greatly reduce the supply.

I have no idea how A or B could be accomplished in a practical manner.