D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

[billd91]

Or a different example : Why would the mayor who intimidated your low level character intimidate your character who is becoming a demigod.... regardless of whether your demigod had the right Charisma emphasis or bonus.

Is there a reason you'd continue to use the Hard DC of 20 for the best results (as listed in the DMG) instead of raising it to Very Hard at 25 or Near Impossible at 30?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Is there a reason you'd continue to use the Hard DC of 20 for the best results (as listed in the DMG) instead of raising it to Very Hard at 25 or Near Impossible at 30?

Well, sure, you can do that, but why is that not simply built into the system? That's basically what 4e is doing for you! The mayor in 4e wants to intimidate a 20th level PC? Its going to be a level 20 DC! Everything 'just works' and abandoning that framework was simply foolish. There is ONE RIGHT CHOICE for that DC, 5e takes away the mechanism that presents that choice by default and makes it a GM guess, one which, IME, half of all GMs will get wrong. Its pure game design 101.

 

[Garthanos]

Is there a reason you'd continue to use the Hard DC of 20 for the best results (as listed in the DMG) i

Are you suggesting the DM arbitrarily give the same obstacle a mayors intimidation a higher/lower difficulty based on level. Sounds like something which has been complained about somewhere.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Are you suggesting the DM arbitrarily give the same obstacle a mayors intimidation a higher/lower difficulty based on level. Sounds like something which has been complained about somewhere.

Well, it is good to see that your logical mind is still functioning well, my friend I think we both know, nothing about this whole 'treadmill debate' is in any way shape or form sense making. IMHO it is all just post-hoc rationalization.

Yes, 4e is VERY transparent about the fact that D&D is a system of sliding scales which cancel each other out. I can accept aesthetic arguments related to that, but in the final analysis its just a question of if you like your rules systems plain and simple and right in front of you where you can tweak them, or more obtusely wrapped up in a layer of what is actually a good idea vs what the rules bother to tell you.

 

[Garthanos]

"

Same with skills you aren't focused on, yup, the 20th level 4e wizard is a great Athlete, by the numbers, but anyone who actually puts those numbers to the test measuring him against villagers is doing it wrong! lol.

One might even picture it as mage hand is getting subtly more valuable

 

[Nefermandias]

Well, sure, you can do that, but why is that not simply built into the system? That's basically what 4e is doing for you! The mayor in 4e wants to intimidate a 20th level PC? Its going to be a level 20 DC! Everything 'just works' and abandoning that framework was simply foolish. There is ONE RIGHT CHOICE for that DC, 5e takes away the mechanism that presents that choice by default and makes it a GM guess, one which, IME, half of all GMs will get wrong. Its pure game design 101.

Just nitpicking that Intimidate is a bad example because it targets the victim's Will defense instead of the standard DC, but yeah that's pretty much spot on.

 

[billd91]

Are you suggesting the DM arbitrarily give the same obstacle a mayors intimidation a higher/lower difficulty based on level. Sounds like something which has been complained about somewhere.

The suggested DCs aren't really arbitrary. They're the suggested difficulties for checks.

 

[billd91]

Well, sure, you can do that, but why is that not simply built into the system? That's basically what 4e is doing for you! The mayor in 4e wants to intimidate a 20th level PC? Its going to be a level 20 DC! Everything 'just works' and abandoning that framework was simply foolish. There is ONE RIGHT CHOICE for that DC, 5e takes away the mechanism that presents that choice by default and makes it a GM guess, one which, IME, half of all GMs will get wrong. Its pure game design 101.

But should there be ONE RIGHT CHOICE? What if the mayor isn't threatening the PC's life directly but their family? Maybe the zoning that affects their business or livelihood? Would it be possible for the mayor's power relative to the threatened object (in this case NOT the PC directly) to determine how effective their intimidation might be?
5e empowers me to mix things up rather than submit to the ONE RIGHT CHOICE [emphasis yours].

Plus, the description of the Intimidate skill in 4e explicitly says "Your Intimidate checks are made against a target's Will defense or a DC set by the DM." [emphasis mine]. So it's not even like your ONE RIGHT CHOICE is the only choice.

 

[Neonchameleon]

But should there be ONE RIGHT CHOICE? What if the mayor isn't threatening the PC's life directly but their family? Maybe the zoning that affects their business or livelihood? Would it be possible for the mayor's power relative to the threatened object (in this case NOT the PC directly) to determine how effective their intimidation might be?
5e empowers me to mix things up rather than submit to the ONE RIGHT CHOICE [emphasis yours].

Guess what? So does 4e. This is why you have easy, medium, and hard DCs in 4e. It's also an excellent example of why some DCs should scale with level and others not. "You're in trouble because I'm the town mayor and I'll set the guard on you" is an example of a DC that shouldn't scale by level; the level of the threat is based on the level of the mayor and guard. "You're in trouble because we've kidnapped your kid" should IMO be based on the level of the PC because all their expertise has no effect on the consequences.

5e does not empower the DM to mix things. It just takes a step back and says "I dunno. You've paid for these rulebooks but they're basically no help". By contrast 4e actually does help as I have shown by giving structured logic based on both level and whether it's easy/medium/hard for that level rather than simply having a simplistic single axis "easy/medium/hard/very hard/impossible" scale and telling the DM to just sort it out.

4e simply has better guidelines and better tools, which doesn't mean there is One Right Choice. It just makes it easier to get to a good one than 5e does. And as in just about every other situation 4e is the edition of DM empowerment while 5e's main virtue seems to be that it just sits there and watches you work.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

"

One might even picture it as mage hand is getting subtly more valuable

Right, there are plenty of options there. Anyway, I don't see why ANY 'hero' of that power level can't simply be good enough to exceed the levels of normal humans.

Heck, just go read 'Age of Adepts', even a 'Beginner Aprentice' level adept is superior in most physical aspects to normal humans, let alone a 1st Grade actual Adept, who could wipe out a whole city of normal humans, probably with his bare fists! That's a 'Principle Adept', lets not even talk about 'Body Refining' ones that actually spend resources on physical traits!

They never really got around to describing Adepts of higher than 6th Grade, but 5th Grade is already so powerful that Planar Consciousnesses EXPEL THEM INTO SPACE because their mere presence in the world screws up the natural laws so much, and that is BEFORE they start casting spells! lol.

An ordinary human even LOOKING AT a 3rd Grade Adept would probably die instantly, unless the adept was consciously veiling his power.