D&D 5E D&D Beyond Cancels Competition

Bolares · Aug 5, 2021

In the end of the day, this is another example of culture shifting. People are starting to respond poorly to this kind of competitions, so companies will find other ways to interact with their community.

PsyzhranV2 · Aug 5, 2021

TheSword said:
Well you have no idea how many of the people that complained were artists and how many had an ideological objection. As it certainly seems several of the fervent opponents of competitions in this thread aren’t artists or creators either.

Bet.

On D&D Beyond's initial contest announcement, there are 119 quote retweets. Of those that are visible, and using the categories of (1) being an artist; (2) being somebody who is not an artist but is publicly involved in games, game design, or game streaming; and (0) being neither, I counted 32 0s, 42 1s, and 30 2s. So that's 32 nobodies up against 72 people who are "in the loop", so to speak, with 15 QRTs unaccounted for presumably because they're on priv. Mind, they're not actually against each other, all of them were reacting negatively to D&D Beyond's contest announcement. There are 154 comments on their announcement post, but I'll have to count them separately as I am both pressed for time and ENWorld's text formatting is starting to break because of my giant list. And that's not counting subtweets either, which I saw plenty of but are quite difficult to track down after the fact. The list:

@mothermonstress: artist (1)
@isadotjpeg: not an artist as far as I can tell (0)
@queeronfire: not an artist (0)
@dungeoneer_figs: paints figures, not a digital artist (1)
@oqulis: artist (1)
@robbyburrito: not an artist (0)
@bruhnoimead: not an artist (0)
@HeyEunjoo: artist (1)
@Mehpilis: not an artist (0)
@delphiez: artist (1)
@gawd_mode: not an artist, TTRPG streamer (2)
@mrshawngraham: not an artist (0)
@ambwosia: primarily a streamer, but also a hobbyist artist (1)
@FSohns: not an artist, TTRPG designer (2)
@helloitsphilip: not an artist (0)
@misaknits: knitter/fiber artist, not a digital artist (1)
@Fussy_Paws: artist (1)
@corinniePop: TTRPG streamer, not an artist (2)
@Zeroes_King: not an artist (0)
@mispixieriot: artist/designer (1)
@OKaysional: not an artist (0)
@BurgerlichP: not an artist (0)
@Mortovox: not an artist (0)
@bent7793: not an artist (0)
@Fox_kom_trikru: not an artist (0)
@Myrmidia: artist (1)
@3rsa__: not an artist (0)
@nonbinarystarry: not ana ritst (0)
@RadiantLightxx: artist (1)
@nooskadraws: artist (1)
@shekinester: clay sculptor, not a digital artist (1)
@FateBoundKnight: artist (1)
@sally_cantirino: artist (1)
@LyreonArt: artist (1)
@AesiraA: artist (1)
@RuleXero: not an artist but does TTRPG stuff (2)
@pemberfoot: not an artist (0)
@LyraMeli: not an artist (0)
@Francois878: not an artist (0)
@ElectricMayhem6: not an artist (0)
@gudspeeller: not an artist (0)
@HanzoDoomer: not an artist (0)
@OffbeatWorlds: artist (1)
@Marcote1D20: not an artist, has a YouTube channel with TTRPG stuff (2)
@MikiDrawsstuff: artist (1)
@ChrimsonBonez: artist (1)
@ArchivistMaven: artist (1)
@FaelesMoon: artist (1)
@DrThreeShoes: not an artist, does TTRPG design (2)
@TheGoonRanger: not an artist, streams TTRPGs (2)
@tyrealhsm: not an artist (0)
@vonzarovik: not an artist (0)
@yettinim: artist (1)
@PellUnderscore: not an artist, TTRPG streamer (2)
@HellatronDrawin: artist (1)
@polyamorous_q: not an artist, does TTRPG stuff (2)
@AlexielApril: artist (1)
@schezar: not an artist, discusses game design (2)
@AdamBlumenau: not an artist, does TTRPG design
@MaskinoYT: VA, doesn't do visual art (0)
@ungatofumando: does TTRPG stuff (2)
@TheCedarForge: woodworker, makes dice trays among other things (1)
@hueshonhue: not an artist (0)
@Tarhod: game designer (2)
@MadamSavvy: artist (1)
@TheOnlyGoulash: not an artist (0)
@JessicaRoseTV: artist (1)
@d20Monkey: artist (1)
@firthism: not an artist (0)
@ClickClacKAI: artist (1)
@carolinethegeek: does TTRPG stuff (2)
@magnavancia: not an artist (0)
@KlausVonH: voice artist and video editor (1)
@kissfortheelves: artist (1)
@sunshadeauarts: artist (1)
@BlackXKatt: does TTRPG streams (2)
@bahlivern: not an artist (0)
@hurc_hv: discusses TTRPGs on YouTube (2)
@Fate_SRD: provides free TTRPG resources (2)
@DaMetroid: pro DM (2)
@HeartAndSolberg: works in TTRPGs (2)
@DracoMundo: not an artist (0)
@Drakesylvan: artist (1)
@Haunted_Gallows: does TTRPG stuff (2)
@TheGoodLiomBoy: artist (1)
@TaverneBabel: TTRPG author (2)
@AaronsGames_: TTRPG YouTuber (2)
@alex_denni0: TTRPG editor (2)
@HyveMynd: TTRPG creator (2)
@MommyMoke: artist (1)
@Alderdoodle: artist (1)
@bi_rogues: artist (1)
@LammaticHama: game designer (2)
@Ikiry0: game designer (2)
@OregonRolledA20: artist (1)
@panarin_misha: game designer (2)
@FaeriewildUA: game designer (2)
@ohadelaide: game designer and streamer (2)
@Dresden_Nova: not an artist (0)
@Transcendant1ne: artist (paints minis) (1)
@toasterposey: artist (T-shirts) (1)
@brentcaudill: not an artist (0)
@LapisLunaris: TTRPG designer (2)
@kai_tave: TTRPG designer (2)
@JNButlerArt: artist (1)

TheSword · Aug 5, 2021

PsyzhranV2 said:
There are 154 comments on their announcement post, but I'll have to count them separately as I am both pressed for time and …

Emphasis mine… clearly not as a pressed for time as I am

So yes, several people commenting aren’t artists was the point I was making.

Though you are referencing the slippery slope to damnation that is Twitter. You’ll be referencing Facebook next perhaps. I’m not really interested in the reflecting effect of echo-chambers.

[Edit] Incidentally now take a glance the number of twitterers who respond to the announcement that it was pulled with dismay. The feeling on this was by no means overwhelming.

PsyzhranV2 · Aug 5, 2021

TheSword said:
Emphasis mine… clearly not as a pressed for time as I am

So yes, several people commenting aren’t artists was the point I was making.

Though you are referencing the slippery slope to damnation that is Twitter. You’ll be referencing Facebook next perhaps. I’m not really interested in the reflecting effect of echo-chambers.

Twitter was who they were targeting in the first place! You can't just invoke it as some demonic spell that automatically invalidates whatever your opponent was arguing! D&D Beyond sent out an advertisement on Twitter, Twitter responded, D&D Beyond adjusted their plans accordingly. They cast a line in the river but nothing was biting, so they reeled it back in. Plain and simple, no nefarious intent whatsoever. I didn't see them posting this contest announcement on the dedicated TTRPG forums, because face it: those platforms are dinosaurs. We're just waiting for the proverbial asteroid to drop.

Though, I didn't know D&D Beyond had a Facebook until now. I'll be sure to take a look when I get my next break off work.

TheSword · Aug 5, 2021

Interesting as well that they made it clear that the submissions had been guaranteed not to be linked to any subscription packs or purchased materials and were just going to be available free to all users… so available for the community.

… what was it you were saying @PsyzhranV2 about labor force being paid the same as the product is sold for?

BookTenTiger · Aug 5, 2021

@TheSword you seem to be treating this discussion like a competition, so in the spirit of Dndbeyond, I'm out.

PsyzhranV2 · Aug 5, 2021

TheSword said:
Interesting as well that they made it clear that the submissions had been guaranteed not to be linked to any subscription packs or purchased materials and were just going to be available free to all users… so available for the community.

… what was it you were saying @PsyzhranV2 about labor force being paid the same as the product is sold for?

You're assuming that because D&D Beyond was going to price those commodities (in this case, the submitted art) at $0.00, that is what they were worth. I'm assuming you're taking this to mean that price = value.

I disagree. I do not believe that price = value. I believe that the hypothetical portrait frames that would have been submitted to the contest if it was still running would be worth more than $0.00 just on account of the labour/work that was put into creating those pieces by the artist. I'm sure many of them would say the same. And if an artist does decide to submit their work for free? Well, that doesn't mean that their work is worth $0.00, it means that said artist is drastically undervaluing themselves, their skills, and their time.

And yes, I'm sure there's bound to be arguments about how the Labour Theory of Value is outdated and that we should get on the neoclassical economics train already, but miss me with that.

TheSword · Aug 5, 2021

PsyzhranV2 said:
You're assuming that because D&D Beyond was going to price those commodities (in this case, the submitted art) at $0.00, that is what they were worth. I'm assuming you're taking this to mean that price = value.

I disagree. I do not believe that price = value. I believe that the hypothetical portrait frames that would have been submitted to the contest if it was still running would be worth more than $0.00 just on account of the labour/work that was put into creating those pieces by the artist. I'm sure many of them would say the same. And if an artist does decide to submit their work for free? Well, that doesn't mean that their work is worth $0.00, it means that said artist is drastically undervaluing themselves, their skills, and their time.

And yes, I'm sure there's bound to be arguments about how the Labour Theory of Value is outdated and that we should get on the neoclassical economics train already, but miss me with that.

Fair enough. Value is not the same as sale price, I agree.

Though this thread has largely been dominated by the ideas that DDB was generating revenue from artists free labour. Also that DDB were exploiting the artists, when in fact it was the community that benefits through entrants submitting their token frames and DDB providing the hosting service and advertising.

The argument - pay your entrants - rings hollow when the product isn’t being sold. Companies that tend to pay more for items than they sell them for seldom thrive. The multitude of problem kickstarters testifies to that.

Hussar · Aug 6, 2021

J.Quondam said:
You've been on ENWorld since 2004, and you're only now getting confused at long, meandering, off-topic threads?
That's pretty impressive, in its own way!

That... is totally fair.

Hussar · Aug 6, 2021

FrogReaver said:
Why would you take any corporate statement at face value?

Yet, we're supposed to just trust that D&D Beyond would never take advantage of the contest?

Which is it? Can we trust companies or not? If we cannot even trust them to make basic statements of fact, why should we trust them when they say that they aren't going to take advantage of the terms of their contest?