D&D 5E Rogues are Awesome. Is it the Tasha's Effect?

[auburn2]

They can. Of course they can! They just need to be unseen and unheard, succeed at their stealth action, make their stealth check vs the passive perception of their foes, and then lean out and fire at the target on their turn. They will do it with advantage, just no sneak attack unless they are a rogue.

Why do they need to succeed at a hide check at all? Unseen attackers get advantage, if you are unseen when you stick your head out you get advantage.

It's just that, because rogues can hide as a bonus action, and because they use advantage to get sneak attack, it's the most common strategy for the rogue.

I agree it is a common strategy to use hide and attack from a hidden location. It is not a common strategy to look out from behind a Rock in plain view of the enemy and still think you are hidden. Look at the photo in the cubicle posted above, you are talking about someone sticking more than that out.

They can. But they need to spend an action to use stealth.

Why do they need to spend an action. Unseen is unseen and gets you advantage. No need for an action. This is clear in the rules.

No, none can do it unless they have cover which makes them unseen prior to the attack so they can use stealth. And then of course they need to spend an action to do it.

Every medium and small creature is partially obscured when standing behind another medium or large creature. They all have partial cover and are partially obscured. If you think you can be hidden in such a condition then the halfling trait brings nothing at all to the table. Same with the Wood elf trait.

What is different about a Gnome hiding behind a Wizards legs and peeking out to shoot (not allowed) and the same Gnome hiding behind a wall and peeking out to shoot? Your position is the first one is not allowed but the second one is? The difference for a halfling is he is specifically allowed to do the first.

It's pretty simple: Step 1) Move to where you are unseen and unheard which will usually be full cover unless you're a lightfoot halfling who can do this behind a medium or large ally, 2) Use stealth, as an action if you're a non-rogue or as a bonus action with cunning action if you are a rogue, 3) beat your target's passive perception with your stealth check, which means you hopefully have a good dex and are trained in stealth (and maybe have expertise in it), 4) on your next turn pop/lean out from cover and fire, with advantage, which ends your stealth after you resolve if you have hit or miss with the attack, 5) see step 1.

But how are you still unseen when you "pop out" and I still want to know why the Barbarian next to you that did not take the hide action isn't. You are both poping out in exactly the same place,

Most rogue players have been doing this, for years and years now. Particularly the lightfoot halfing ones. It's how most of those ranged rogues get sneak attack.

Most Rogues in games I played do not get advantage for being unseen while in plain view, whether they took the hide action before moving out into view or not. Most Rogues do get advantage on a good 50% or more of their ranged attacks, most of them while attacking from a hidden position. Melee Rogues occasionally do as well.

My key point here - you don't need to implement a rule that allows Rogues to be hidden in the open for them to get advantage and attack from an unseen position. There are all kinds of places to be unseen and shoot with advantage most of the time. Not all the time, but most of the time, it just takes some creativity and thinking on the part of the Rogue.

Finally I will point out that my position does not nerf the Rogue. If the Rogue needs to pass a stealth check to get advantage he is only going to get that advantage when he actually passes the check. If you go by RAW, he can get advantage any time he attacks from an unseen position without hiding, he is going to be able to do it more often. Further under Tasha's he can sacrifice movement to simply get advantage with a bonus action steady aim. So if anything hiding like you are describing is going to reduce opportunities for advantage compared to other options like steady aim or at night dash because you are relying on passing a stealth check.

The easiest way to get advantage on an attack is steady aim. The second most common easy way is in a dark area against an enemy who is in dim or bright light; simply move outside of the lit area or outside the enemies darkvision range and attack from there. If you decide to move behind a lit area with a wall instead and use your hiding rules you are going to get advantage less often.

If you like it in your game though have at it.

 

[auburn2]

It's a Dexterity (Stealth) check, which requires an action. There isn't really a "hide action".

You are absolutely wrong the action itself is "hide". "Hide" is one of the 10 "actions" listed on page 192-193 of the PHB, similarly on the description of cunning action on page 96 lists it as the "hide action". "Dexterity (Stealth)" is not an action, it is a skill and is the skill normally used when someone takes the hide action.

Trying to be unseen and unheard is the "hide action" which is typically resolved with a "Dexterity (Stealth)" check contested by an opponents passive Wisdom (Perception) or contested by active Wisdom (perception) if the opponent takes the "search" action.

This is similar to trying to shove someone which uses an "attack action" and is typically resolved using the strength (athletics) skill against an opponents strength (athletics) skill.

An unseen attacker is technically "unseen and unheard". Without a Dexterity (Stealth) check, you don't have all the benefits of being concealed, though you do have some benefits like a benefit to AC from the cover. Unlike invisibility, a condition which carries advantage automatically associated with that condition, getting yourself completely concealed behind the kind of cover where you can pop out and attack with advantage requires a skill check. The rules say, "Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies."

no it is not and Multiple places in the PHB it states unseen attackers get advantage, nowhere does it say such attackers need to be unheard for advantage (they need to be unheard for hidden) and the section on unseen attackers even makes a distinction between the two (unseen vs unseen and unheard) with unseen attackers getting advantage:

Exact quote from PHB 195 unseen attackers and targets: "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack you give away your location when the attack hits or misses"

There is no hide action.

Yes there is, PHB p192. There is no stealth action.

 

[auburn2]

nm

 

[Mistwell]

You are absolutely wrong the action itself is "hide". "Hide" is one of the 10 "actions" listed on page 192-193 of the PHB, similarly on the description of cunning action on page 96 lists it as the "hide action". "Dexterity (Stealth)" is not an action, it is a skill and is the skill normally used when someone takes the hide action.

Trying to be unseen and unheard is the "hide action" which is typically resolved with a "Dexterity (Stealth)" check contested by an opponents passive Wisdom (Perception) or contested by active Wisdom (perception) if the opponent takes the "search" action.

This is similar to trying to shove someone which uses an "attack action" and is typically resolved using the strength (athletics) skill against an opponents strength (athletics) skill.


no it is not and Multiple places in the PHB it states unseen attackers get advantage, nowhere does it say such attackers need to be unheard for advantage (they need to be unheard for hidden) and the section on unseen attackers even makes a distinction between the two (unseen vs unseen and unheard) with unseen attackers getting advantage:

Exact quote from PHB 195 unseen attackers and targets: "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack you give away your location when the attack hits or misses"



Yes there is, PHB p192. There is no stealth action.

I think this might be the most absurd argument I've had here in over a year. Which is saying something. When I search for "hide action" in DNDBeyond, zero results pertaining to this conversation come up. Probably an errata issue, but whatever, it was a meaningless issue.

You want to play it so you don't need a dex (stealth) action to gain advantage from being unseen, you go right ahead.

Whatever point you were trying t make, I don't think anyone buys it. But, you play it however you like. I will continue to play it how Crawford describes it and how thousands have played it for years now. You can continue to claim he's not saying what he says, and the rules don't say what he says they say. It won't impact anyone but your game.

But hey, thanks for completely hijacking the thread. My fault too, since I was replying to your silly position instead of ignoring it after it became clear you viewed it the way you do.

I am out.

 

[Oofta]

I think this might be the most absurd argument I've had here in over a year. Which is saying something. When I search for "hide action" in DNDBeyond, zero results pertaining to this conversation come up. Probably an errata issue, but whatever, it was a meaningless issue.

You want to play it so you don't need a dex (stealth) action to gain advantage from being unseen, you go right ahead.

Whatever point you were trying t make, I don't think anyone buys it. But, you play it however you like. I will continue to play it how Crawford describes it and how thousands have played it for years now. You can continue to claim he's not saying what he says, and the rules don't say what he says they say. It won't impact anyone but your game.

I am out.

Huh? Hide is described as an action.

Hide​

When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.​

​

I describe it more as an action "tax" but it's still listed as an action. If you are hidden you do gain the same benefit as unseen attackers which for purposes of this conversation is:

Unseen Attackers and Targets​

... When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.​

​

The only reason you get advantage while hidden is because you are considered unseen.

 

[Maxperson]

I think this might be the most absurd argument I've had here in over a year. Which is saying something. When I search for "hide action" in DNDBeyond, zero results pertaining to this conversation come up. Probably an errata issue, but whatever, it was a meaningless issue.

You want to play it so you don't need a dex (stealth) action to gain advantage from being unseen, you go right ahead.

Whatever point you were trying t make, I don't think anyone buys it. But, you play it however you like. I will continue to play it how Crawford describes it and how thousands have played it for years now. You can continue to claim he's not saying what he says, and the rules don't say what he says they say. It won't impact anyone but your game.

But hey, thanks for completely hijacking the thread. My fault too, since I was replying to your silly position instead of ignoring it after it became clear you viewed it the way you do.

I am out.

He's wrong about not being able to pop out from hiding and shoot with advantage, but he's right about this. If you cannot be seen, you have advantage with your attacks. There's no stealth roll needed. Invisibility is the classic example of this. If you are invisible, you have advantage on your attacks regardless of whether you are using stealth or not. This is because you are unseen, not because invisibility has some super magical attack with advantage ability.

 

[auburn2]

I think this might be the most absurd argument I've had here in over a year. Which is saying something. When I search for "hide action" in DNDBeyond, zero results pertaining to this conversation come up. Probably an errata issue, but whatever, it was a meaningless issue.

You want to play it so you don't need a dex (stealth) action to gain advantage from being unseen, you go right ahead.

Whatever point you were trying t make, I don't think anyone buys it. But, you play it however you like. I will continue to play it how Crawford describes it and how thousands have played it for years now. You can continue to claim he's not saying what he says, and the rules don't say what he says they say. It won't impact anyone but your game.

But hey, thanks for completely hijacking the thread. My fault too, since I was replying to your silly position instead of ignoring it after it became clear you viewed it the way you do.

I am out.

hide action players handbook - page 192

search action players handbook - page 193

unseen attackers players handbook - page 194-195

I have no idea what it says online in d&d beyond and while I reference sage advice and forums like this, I use the actual rulebooks as the primary source when I play the game.

 

[Li Shenron]

Rogues are Awesome. Is it the Tasha's Effect?​

I don't think so. I've seen a good bunch of Rogues in 5e, ALL of them were awesome, and I've never played with SCAG or Tasha material (except Swashbuckler because that's also in Xanathar).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If you shoot from behind cover, the stealth check is just: can you shoot quick enough, before the enemy notices you and can react accordingly.

If you always use the same trick, I just give advantage on the passive perception check, so the DC to pull it off over and over again is 5 points higher. In rare circumstances, you could also have disadvantage on your stealth check, maybe if you are the only enemy, so everyone focusses just on you.

That said: steady aim is useful for such situations. You pop out, aim well and hit.
The disadvantage to that is that you are not officially hidden, but only have half or (near) total cover. And anyone is still sure, that you are still there.

 

[tommybahama]

If you always use the same trick, I just give advantage on the passive perception check, so the DC to pull it off over and over again is 5 points higher. In rare circumstances, you could also have disadvantage on your stealth check, maybe if you are the only enemy, so everyone focusses just on you.

So long as you and your players are fine with you not DMing as RAW or RAI then it's fine. For me, I'd find it frustrating that you are breaking a core mechanic of my class. I'd much rather you have an enemy archer or spellcaster hold their action until I pop out. Or have a mounted enemy chase me down. That would be cool. There are other ways of challenging the rogue without breaking the RAW and RAI.