D&D 5E Does extra-attack work with bows and crossbows?

[Ancalagon]

Yeah, I've figured that.

I got a bit hanged up on that, since it elegantly fixes all my issues with ranged weapons, but, no, 3 hand crossbow attacks +15 each is the way it supposed to work.

Well that's because the rules for hand crossbows don't reflect reality in any meaningful way...

 

[loverdrive]

Did ... did we really think EVERYONE has been doing something this major wrong since 5E came out and it NEVER came up before?

Well, web developers rediscover W3C specifications from time to time, so... Yeah, I can see something major slipin through cracks from time to time

 

[NotAYakk]

Yeah, I've figured that.

I got a bit hanged up on that, since it elegantly fixes all my issues with ranged weapons, but, no, 3 hand crossbow attacks 1d6+15 Piecing each is the way it supposed to work.

If you have issues with ranged combat, don't twist the rules. Just houserule.

My approach was to improve the non PAM+GWM/SS+XBE cases:

1. Feats to compete with XBE/PAM. Blade, Axe, Hammer, Bow, Sling. Also, tweaked XBE to do something more for the 2 handed xbows.

2. Modified DW to compete with GWM/SS. (The core is "if you have advantage, a lower die can hit with the offhand weapon")

3. Buffed shields (in your hands) by letting you sacrifice them to get resistance to a spell or an attack. Magic shields get "free" uses of this without destroying them. (This effectively competes with DW/GWM/SS)

4. Added Spellcasting Focus feats that are similar in power scale to PAM/XBE. (feats you'd consider taking instead of +2 to your spellcasting stat)

5. Added Elemental-specific feats that are similar in power scale to GWM/SS. (feats you'd consider taking instead of +2 to your spellcasting stat)

As a bonus, if you want to CharOp, you can't just look up builds online. Which is more fun. And it means if you didn't charop, the odds that your specific setup is ameniable to one of the above is more likely; nearly every fighting style is now represented.

 

[Bolares]

Why do people need to put down people who have rules questions? There is no need to comment something like "Do we really not know this?" or "Everyone knows this for so long, it can't be wrong?".

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yeah, I've figured that.

I got a bit hanged up on that, since it elegantly fixes all my issues with ranged weapons, but, no, 3 hand crossbow attacks 1d6+15 Piecing each is the way it supposed to work.

Yup. Just because it's intended doesn't mean it's also good, though.

 

[TwoSix]

If you have issues with ranged combat, don't twist the rules. Just houserule.

My approach was to improve the non PAM+GWM/SS+XBE cases:

1. Feats to compete with XBE/PAM. Blade, Axe, Hammer, Bow, Sling. Also, tweaked XBE to do something more for the 2 handed xbows.

2. Modified DW to compete with GWM/SS. (The core is "if you have advantage, a lower die can hit with the offhand weapon")

3. Buffed shields (in your hands) by letting you sacrifice them to get resistance to a spell or an attack. Magic shields get "free" uses of this without destroying them. (This effectively competes with DW/GWM/SS)

4. Added Spellcasting Focus feats that are similar in power scale to PAM/XBE. (feats you'd consider taking instead of +2 to your spellcasting stat)

5. Added Elemental-specific feats that are similar in power scale to GWM/SS. (feats you'd consider taking instead of +2 to your spellcasting stat)

As a bonus, if you want to CharOp, you can't just look up builds online. Which is more fun. And it means if you didn't charop, the odds that your specific setup is ameniable to one of the above is more likely; nearly every fighting style is now represented.

Do you have these somewhere?

 

[jgsugden]

Why do people need to put down people who have rules questions? There is no need to comment something like "Do we really not know this?" or "Everyone knows this for so long, it can't be wrong?".

We don't need to be insulting in how we make the comment, but it is worth reminding people to apply critical thinking.

If you read something in the rules that seems to fundamentally differ from how people are known to play the game, you need to stop and evaluate what is going on. The most likely scenario is that you are misunderstanding something. If you come at it from that angle, you'll have less contempt from others. When I've encountered this phenomena in similar scenarios, my approaches would have been something like one of the following:

"Hey folks - I am not getting something. I'm reading this section of rules: "XXXXXXXX". It seems to say: Do Y. However, I am pretty sure we all do Z instead of Y. Can someone help me figure out what I am missing here?"

"I was reading pg ## in the PHB and something is not sitting right with me. It says to do Y, but I know we all do Z. Neither Y nor Z make sense to me, but I'm confused why we're all doing Z. Can someone explain what is going on?"

 

[Ancalagon]

Here's a mechanical idea that might fix some ranged weapons issues...

I think the problem is the size of the "rider damage". A blowgun does ONE point of damage. It's a 1d1 in other words. However, a dex 20 with sharpshooter will add 15 dmg to that (and a critical hit will do a total of 17 instead of 16 damage, woho! ... but I disgress).

So while a heavy crossbow does "more damage", the size of the damage dice is a minor consideration when you have +15 to damage. So maybe there should be a "maximum" amount of damage that can be added to an attack, and maybe that maximum should be related to the dice size. A simple way would be something like a 1d6 has a + 6 is max, a 1d10 is + 10 etc.

This really nerfs smaller weapons... which historically, were used either because of ease of carry, or ease of stealth with them. However, I would specifically exclude sneak attack or poison damage from that maximum, which gives rogues and would-be assassins a reason to use them.

I'm aware this is a rough idea and not fined tuned but it may help.

 

[loverdrive]

If you have issues with ranged combat, don't twist the rules. Just houserule.

And I will. I've just thought "Wait. This actually makes so much sense that I wonder, wasn't it the original intention?". Apparently, it wasn't.

 

[loverdrive]

Here's a mechanical idea that might fix some ranged weapons issues...

I think the problem is the size of the "rider damage". A blowgun does ONE point of damage. It's a 1d1 in other words. However, a dex 20 with sharpshooter will add 15 dmg to that (and a critical hit will do a total of 17 instead of 16 damage, woho! ... but I disgress).

So while a heavy crossbow does "more damage", the size of the damage dice is a minor consideration when you have +15 to damage. So maybe there should be a "maximum" amount of damage that can be added to an attack, and maybe that maximum should be related to the dice size. A simple way would be something like a 1d6 has a + 6 is max, a 1d10 is + 10 etc.

This really nerfs smaller weapons... which historically, were used either because of ease of carry, or ease of stealth with them. However, I would specifically exclude sneak attack or poison damage from that maximum, which gives rogues and would-be assassins a reason to use them.

I'm aware this is a rough idea and not fined tuned but it may help.

I think "rider" damage in itself is ok. I personally just don't like the fact that a fighter with a ranged weapon and a fighter with a mêlée weapon on roughly equal levels of optimization deal roughly the same damage, despite the ranged one:

• Depending on a better stat a with better save -- Str save is basically worthless, Dex save is both common and bears some nasty effects on fail
• Still being able to fight in mêlée when things go south, unlike a str-fighter who can't viably attack at a long range
• Having the same to hit bonus without XE, and two more with it
• Being able to make attacks more often -- it's far easier to get within 60' of the target than to get into 5' or 10'
• Generally taking less risk when fighting
• And, yeah, stealth is no joke too

When we get to real charop, a fighter with a hand crossbow can do pretty much everything that a fighter with a glaive can, and also has some benefits on top of that. Basically, they give up only 1 AC and very situational ability to grapple and shove that is better handled by barbs or weird rogues anyway.