So You've Decided to Run a "Western" Game. What Kind?

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think someone ought to do a movie about Tanto where Lone Ranger is even more dependent upon Tanto.
(I also wonder where they chose that name from. The Spanish "Of Course!" or the Japanese dagger, or elsewhere?)

Actually, the name is “Tonto”. Apparently, in Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish, "tonto" translates as "a dumb person", "moron", or "fool". While only a few would be fluent in any of those languages in the American West, Spanish words- for things like food, drink, slang and insults- might be familiar to a fair number of people. Especially the farther west or southwest you go.

And that fits in nicely with your observation about how the character is often dismissed by most of the antagonists- the clearly caucasian HERO is literally calling him “Dummy” all the time. It plays right into the prejudicial mindset of some of the people they opposed.

 

[Committed Hero]

I've also heard that "Kemo Sabe" was similar enough to "que no sabe" that a lot of Spanish speakers think Tonto is insulting him back.

 

[MGibster]

Actually, the name is “Tonto”. Apparently, in Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish, "tonto" translates as "a dumb person", "moron", or "fool". While only a few would be fluent in any of those languages in the American West, Spanish words- for things like food, drink, slang and insults- might be familiar to a fair number of people. Especially the farther west or southwest you go.

The guy who came up with the Tonto character lived in the northern part of the United States and was completely unfamiliar with Spanish. Supposedly he checked with members of a local tribe who told him Tonto meant "wild," and, if true, it could be they were just messing with him for fun or there was a miscommunication. We watched a Spanish dub of an episode of The Lone Ranger in high school Spanish and he was called Toro (bull) in that episode.

I realized there's some mixed feelings about Tonto and in particular when it comes to his broken English. As a kid, I never looked at his English as indicative of any lack of intelligence on his part. Maybe it's because I lived in Germany and Texas and had met a fair number of people for whom English was a second language and their grammar wasn't always spot on. Rather than being portrayed as a bumbling fool Tonto was a loyal, brave, and competent friend and ally to the Lone Ranger. If I were to remake the Lone Ranger today I'd certainly put an end to the broken English. I'd also go back to having a Native American play him instead of Johnny Depp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That might be a part of it. Especially if the “dummy” theory has any merit”.

Wikipedia says this:

Ultimately derived from gimoozaabi, an Ojibwe and Potawatomi word that may mean "he/she looks out in secret",[1] it has been occasionally translated as "trusty scout" (the first Lone Ranger TV episode, 1941) or "faithful friend".[2]

In the 2013 film The Lone Ranger, Tonto states that it means "wrong brother" in Comanche, a seemingly tongue-in-cheek translation within the context of the plot.

and

Jim Jewell, director of The Lone Ranger from 1933 to 1939, took the phrase from Kamp Kee-Mo Sah-Bee, a boys' camp on Mullett Lake in Michigan, established by Charles W. Yeager (Jewell's father-in-law) in 1916.[3]Yeager himself probably took the term from Ernest Thompson Seton, one of the founders of the Boy Scouts of America, who had given the meaning "scout runner" to Kee-mo-sah'-bee in his 1912 book "The Book of Woodcraft and Indian Lore".[4]

Kamp Kee-Mo Sah-Bee was in an area inhabited by the Ottawa, who speak a language which is mutually comprehensible with Ojibwe. John D. Nichols and Earl Nyholm's A Concise Dictionary of Minnesota Ojibwedefines the Ojibwe word giimoozaabi as "he peeks" (and, in theory, "he who peeks"), making use of the prefix giimoo(j)-, "secretly"; Rob Malouf, now an associate professor of linguistics at San Diego State University, suggested that "giimoozaabi" may indeed have also meant scout (i.e., "one who sneaks").[5]

Another possible interpretation to Kemo Sabe is in reference to the Lone Ranger's mask, which could be interpreted as "he who peeks" from behind the mask.

All that said, they might still have considered the “false friend” of “que no sabe" to be a cherry on top if they were familiar with spanish.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The guy who came up with the Tonto character lived in the northern part of the United States and was completely unfamiliar with Spanish. Supposedly he checked with members of a local tribe who told him Tonto meant "wild," and, if true, it could be they were just messing with him for fun or there was a miscommunication. We watched a Spanish dub of an episode of The Lone Ranger in high school Spanish and he was called Toro (bull) in that episode.

The “Tonto”/“Toro” translation has been mentioned in some of what I’ve read. But the writer didn‘t explain why this happened.

I realized there's some mixed feelings about Tonto and in particular when it comes to his broken English. As a kid, I never looked at his English as indicative of any lack of intelligence on his part. Maybe it's because I lived in Germany and Texas and had met a fair number of people for whom English was a second language and their grammar wasn't always spot on. Rather than being portrayed as a bumbling fool Tonto was a loyal, brave, and competent friend and ally to the Lone Ranger. If I were to remake the Lone Ranger today I'd certainly put an end to the broken English. I'd also go back to having a Native American play him instead of Johnny Depp.

I’d keep the broken English…as a tactical affectation to keep others underestimating him.

 

[Committed Hero]

Attach files

If I were to remake the Lone Ranger today I'd certainly put an end to the broken English. I'd also go back to having a Native American play him instead of Johnny Depp.

I have a soft spot for Graham Greene in Maverick. Watching the scene again I didn't realize he sounds as Canadian as the McKenzies.

 

[Herne'sSon]

Actually, the name is “Tonto”. Apparently, in Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish, "tonto" translates as "a dumb person", "moron", or "fool". While only a few would be fluent in any of those languages in the American West, Spanish words- for things like food, drink, slang and insults- might be familiar to a fair

I thought it was interesting how they played the "fool" aspect of the name into the character in the semi-recent Disney film of the Lone Ranger, with Johnny Depp as Tonto.

In it (and without spoiling too much) Tonto was played as sort of a trickster character, and as the film progresses we discover that he's dealing with PTSD of sorts because of the awful thing that happened to his tribe when he was a child.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Hmmmmm…a weird west setting in which you send cinematic & tv show western tropes through the looking glass…

A white vigilante and his Indian sidekick who are actually a Trickster spirit and his American acolyte

The rifleman whose Winchester never runs out of bullets…and nobody ever sees him buying any, either.

A fugitive shaolin priest who actually has all those supernatural abilities people claim they have.

A fire & brimstone minister’s daughter turned gunslinger…who is a little to familiar with fire and brimstone.

 

[aramis erak]

Hmmmmm…a weird west setting in which you send cinematic & tv show western tropes through the looking glass…

A white vigilante and his Indian sidekick who are actually a Trickster spirit and his American acolyte

The rifleman whose Winchester never runs out of bullets…and nobody ever sees him buying any, either.

A fugitive shaolin priest who actually has all those supernatural abilities people claim they have.

A fire & brimstone minister’s daughter turned gunslinger…who is a little to familiar with fire and brimstone.

Welcome to Deadlands. That's pretty much the tone of the books....

 

[DammitVictor]

I'm pretty much only interested in settings with magic in them-- with a few narrow exceptions-- but most intersections of "fantasy" with "Western" are going to get my attention. Even games with more of a horror focus, like Deadlands, are going to be high on my list.

One of my projects was going to essentially be a D&D-in-Space setting, except with 19th century technology, and "the wild frontier" was going to be the region of space made up of former colonies of "the East" and "the West". I realized that despite my best efforts, I wasn't going to be able to write it without doing approximately all of the racisms, so I regretfully dropped the whole thing.