D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Imaro]

I think I have once or twice, but sure I can put somethings down.

I don't know if I have ever had a really good exploration challenge, but I do want to refer back to the princess and the cult situation for something that is a good challenge.

Because setting that up as it was in the very end does lead to an interesting challenge I think. First, you have to find the cult, hopefully without them knowing you did so. This will happen, you can't have the players not find them, so the tension on this step is trying to do so without raising suspicion. Then you have to figure out a way to get in and get the princess. This seems basic, but the more information the players have, the more options they have. They could assault the cult directly, and back off, planning on getting them moving and ambushing them while they are not as heavily defended. They could go to local authorities, though that risks adding an element that is out of their hands and may complicate things further. Sneak in? Maybe. Get recruited by the cult and infiltrate? Possibly also viable.

You could even add more complications. Maybe the princess has a magical item on her that is preventing her escaoe, or brainwashing her to be a loyal cult member. That adds a new wrinkle.


And I think this highlights enough to speak in general terms. The players need to have multiple paths to success, and enough information to make those decisions with confidence and some certainty. They don't need to know exactly which room the princess is in, but they need to know she is in this building, for example. And there need to be enough elements and complications to make their plans need more than a single step. If after a single declared action the challenge is solved, it wasn't actually a challenge.

Does that help frame things better?

Sort of, My take is that this seems like you want an entire adventure (as opposed to a single challenge) designed solely around exploration...and that may be where alot of the back and forth and confusion is coming from. For me personally something like what you are describing above is an entire adventure and should be built with challenges around all 3 pillars...

 

[Mort]

Maybe, but there is a big difference here.

If illusion magic to disguise yourself as another person is being used consistently in the history of the world, people may come up with counter-measures. These are logical in the world. Sure, you may be able to convince the guards at the gate that you are their commander to get in the city, but convincing the King that you are his Majordomo? That should be far harder in a world that accounts for magic, because they need to prevent magical assassins.

Now, how is this different that the DM causing a rockslide when the party goes through the pass?

Because rock-slides can't make decisions. They can't react to a dynamic situation. People can, they can come up with counter-measures to your plans, as you reach higher and higher tiers of play.

First, the DM doesn't (or shouldn't) cause a Rockslide. The DM determines circumstances (including random chance) that a Rockslide might happen and goes from there.

But the environment might absolutely be influenced by the fact that magic exists.

Sleep only works at low-level, and hypnotic pattern is amazing, but there are many spells like it and they all take a spell slot.

A ritual spell to bypass an exploration challenge has no DCs to fail and no resources spent, making that alone a very different set-up, before you start looking into encounters you can build to counter those issues with combat solutions.

Remember, another part of the complaint here isn't that there is no way to "counter" a party using these solutions, just that all of the counters fall outside of the Explorations Pillar

I don't mean to keep going in circles, but there are plenty of ways to challenge a group with access to rituals etc. And they don't all involve, throw a monster at them (though, again, I don't really understand your problem with combining pillars; sometimes it's not safe to spend 10 minutes on a ritual because 10 minutes conspicuously out in the open might attract unwanted attention - a plausible and perfectly acceptable consequence).

 

[Faolyn]

This has been shown to not be true. Create Water is a cantrip. Purify food and drink is a ritual. We've been over this. Multiple times.

And, sorry, I'll admit to missing your point about breathe water. Could you repeat it please?

There is no such cantrip called create water. The spell create or destroy water is 1st level, and it specifically creates 10 gallons of water in an open container. Not containers plural. It's pedantic, but if you're worried that it's too powerful, you can emphasize that. "Do you have more than one container? No? Sorry. You fill up your waterskin. The rest of the water sploshes on the ground." The only water-related cantrip is shape water, which doesn't create water.

Edit: Purify food and drink is indeed a ritual. But of the four classes that can cast it (artificers, clerics, druids, paladins), paladins can't cast rituals and the other three can only cast it ritually if they have it prepared. And since you generally only get to prepare spells equal to your spellcasting ability mod + your level, at lower levels especially you might not have the slots to spare.

Edit Redux: Aaand I appear to have been blocked. Interesting.

 

[Hussar]

when I design a combat encounter and take into consideration CR, the level of the party and how many PC's makeup the party... am I railroading?

No, of course not. However, if you are making encounters specifically to counter the makeup of the party and the only reason you are doing so is because the party has (or doesn't have) X, then, yup, that's pretty heavy handed. I'm calling it railroading in Exploration because you are enforcing a specific outcome - the party MUST climb this mountain blind, the child ONLY wanders away because... - that pretty obvious.

 

[tetrasodium]

No, it's a 1st level spell. Which means it uses resources that the party could use elsewhere.


Sure, but you need food that was once edible for it to work. it doesn't necessarily make the inedible, edible. Certainly has it's uses (don't have to worry about spoilage) but it's not a panacea. It's again, a good but tool not the be all end all.


It's hard to discuss when you have this much contempt/snark, especially when you get basic facts like the levels of spells wrong.



Water Breathing allows the group to breathe water that's it. It's basically the bare minimum to even have an underwater adventure. It certainly doesn't obviate/negate any challenge that happens to be under water - it just allows it to even happen. A group that relies on Water Breathing and not much else? Is going to be very hampered underwater.

The outlander background feature solves that entire problem about create food & water's slot cost & purify food/water slot cost/component need provided the party size is no more than 6 people per outlander (self plus 5=6 per)

 

[Imaro]

No, of course not. However, if you are making encounters specifically to counter the makeup of the party and the only reason you are doing so is because the party has (or doesn't have) X, then, yup, that's pretty heavy handed. I'm calling it railroading in Exploration because you are enforcing a specific outcome - the party MUST climb this mountain blind, the child ONLY wanders away because... - that pretty obvious.

Who said that was the only reason in the examples... The party could use rope, torches and so on to not climb blind but it would take longer and require group checks and allow them to be spotted... the child wanders away because she's curious, tempted, charmed, etc. I don't see how you wholly separate your knowledge of what your PC's are capable of from the design of a challenge? Again in a combat challenge I am, through adjusting said encounter based on party level, # in party, CR, etc. creating a challenge appropriate for their abilities... why wouldn't I do the same for the exploration pillar if that is my desired outcome?

EDIT: You do realize everything is contrived, right? And in the realm of adventure fantasy where magic exists I find it weird that nearly anything can't be justified through the narrative without seeming heavy handed.

 

[Lanefan]

Nope. Closest I've gotten is knowing that something more is going on but being forced to stumble around in the dark because the DM refuses to let us actually figure anything out until the "big reveal" which we normally could never have guessed at because we had absolutely know way of knowing the key information .

That's too bad. It doesn't even have to lead up to any sort of "big reveal" either.

The first few adventures in any campaign are IME more or less one-offs, to allow the PCs and-or players to get accustomed to each other and - in the players' case - to the rule-set. But even in those first few adventures I'll throw in breadcrumbs and hints at bigger things, which may or may not ever become relevant later depending on which twists and turns the campaign ends up taking. And if-when they do become relevant I can say "You know something about this because you already encountered it way back here" even if the real-world players have long since forgotten.

A quick example (s-blocked for length):

Spoiler

in my current campaign there's two very distinct cultures of Hobgoblin (neither of which call themselves Hobgoblins!) who are at extermination-level war with each other. One of these cultures is more or less familiar to most adventurers, the other isn't. In the second or third adventure I ran, I replaced some ordinary Hobgoblins with some of the unfamiliar "Hagalen" types. The players/PCs of course completely ignored these subleties at the time, slaughtered the lot, and moved on.

Some years and many adventures later a few of those same characters (and players) unexpectedly found themselves caught right in the middle of that war in a desert well to the east. They then remembered they'd seen some out of place Hagalen years earlier and could have, had they wanted, started asking questions like what they were doing where they were met e.g. were they spies? were they deserters? etc.; and this might have led to a different series of adventures than the ones they undertook.

Instead, the PCs did other things that hastened the end of said war - they picked a side (the familiar Hobgoblins) and through their adventuring greatly weakened the Hagalen by, ultimately, destroying their deity - rendering such questions largely redundant.

I still find that a poor way to play, sorry. It's like.. the players have no need to know the DC of the wand of Lightning they have. But there is also no reason not to tell them, it allows them to make a more informed decision about using it, and that's all. But you want the item to be a mystery box, they have no idea what the DC is, they have no idea how many charges it is, it gives them nothing to base their choices on. And I find that just detracts from the game, to have it all be a mystery box with no answers.

Identify can give you a rough idea of charges remaining, and-or whether it's rechargeable or not, and-or what level of Lightning Bolts are in it if it's non-standard.

Except it isn't. I'm gonna level with you, no one at my tables has ever cared which direction a door opened,

Where I get asked at almost every single door, if-when I forget to mention it. If nothing else, they need to know in order to position their minis (or tell me where their PCs are standing) in case something bad awaits on the other side.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Maybe people who want in depth exploration challenges are better off with video games?

 

[Mort]

The outlander background feature solves that entire problem about create food & water's slot cost & purify food/water slot cost/component need provided the party size is no more than 6 people per outlander (self plus 5=6 per)

Backgrounds provide serious benefits on this front.

I have no problem with this really, taking outlander means you didn't take something else.

Exploation doesn't have to be about food management survival horror.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Maybe people who want in depth exploration challenges are better off with video games?

There's lots of RPGs that do exploration plenty well enough. The space isn't 5e or video games.