D&D 5E New D&D WotC survey! On classes.

[Ruin Explorer]

I agree. I think the problem is one of feel. Bards and Monks are both very effective in 5e, but something about them just feels off to people. Since we’re really good at recognizing when we like or don’t like something but really bad at identifying why, this off feel ends up manifesting as “bards/monks suck” because that’s what our brains reach for most immediately. “This class feels off, must be because it’s bad.”

I've literally never even read a post which suggested Bards were anything less than stunningly effective prior to this, or heard any "Bards suck" stuff which wasn't "I want Bards to be terrible half-casters and essentially get nothing back because 3E".

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Q. Why are there Bards in 5e?

A. So the Way of Four Elements Monks have something to look down on.

I mean, but that's nonsensical, because Bards are vastly more effective and playable than Wo4E Monks, like you could blind-pick spells on a Bard and still be ahead there.

It's like running up to me and calling me skinny or something, like it just makes you look like you don't understand how to do insults lol.

 

[Mort]

I mean, but that's nonsensical, because Bards are vastly more effective and playable than Wo4E Monks, like you could blind-pick spells on a Bard and still be ahead there.

It's like running up to me and calling me skinny or something, like it just makes you look like you don't understand how to do insults lol.

I think this started with @Snarf Zagyg trying to be funny and it getting a bit out of hand.

My 2 cents on bards:

Very effective and can easily fill in as the full caster of the group plus unlike most mages can completely rock social challenges.

But: IMO, bards run out of resources fast. Most bards don't have access to rituals (unlike mages) so have to rely on spell slots - that can get eaten up pretty fast if the DM is pushing hard enough (sure a bard can take ritual caster - but that means an ASI or a big feat like inspiring leader delayed or not taken). Getting their bardic inspiration recharged on a short rest (at 5th) helps a lot but even then can run out fast.

But that's the trade off to being REALLY effective to the resources they do have - I've found bards to work quite well (mechanically and otherwise).

 

[Greg K]

In my comments, I did not focus on class balance. Some things that I mentioned include the following:

1. Barbarian:
a. more subclasses and options for for non-mystical raging warriors

2. Bard
a. Either move the subclass to first level or create a Level 1: Martial variant that receives the armor and weapon proficiencies of the valor bard and then adjust the Valor Bard as necessary.

3. Cleric:
a. Add level 1 choice similar to the Warlock's Pacts- something Maybe call it Order. Possible orders could repreent Monastic/Cloistered priests (more scholarly order, no armor, simple weapons, extra skills), Mendicant (beggar order with no armor. Perhaps give them martial arts to defend themselves), Itinerant ( a more worldly travelling order), and Templar (Martial order with heavier armor and martial weapons) . Move Armor, Weapons, Divine Strike, Potent caster to Order.
b. limit clerics to a smaller shared list for all clerics with spells (e.g. augury, bless, bestow curse, remove curse, planar ally) and spells from the cleric's domain. Possibly add third smaller list based on alignment.

4. Druid
Unlike most people, the only Circle that I think is close to my liking in implementation is the Circle of the Land. However, if the Druid is going to be the class that, officially, handles "Shamans" through subclasses, both the Circle of the Land and the Circle of the Shephard both fall short for my tastes
a. Circle of the Land can be for Shaman's dealing with Spirits of Place, the Circle of the Shephard appears to be dealing Totems, and we need one dealing with Ancestors (parent, sibling, grandparent).
b. The druid "shamanic" subclasses should be able to Command/Turn spirits and non-corporeal undead similar to the cleric's turn undead as Shaman's will bribe, persuade, cajole, and intimidate spirits
c. The "shamanic" druid subclasses" should be able to use the Spirit for guidance or scouting on a short rest without using a spell. In many cultures, a spirit associated with the Shaman (and not bound to a specific location) can be sent out to seek out additional knowledge about nature, healing, etc. from other spirits when both the shaman and their associated spirit does have knowledge on a given topic.
d. I find the Circle of the Shepard especially annoying beginning with reading and writing sylvan (and I dislike similar abilities of other subclasses). Second, i want more generic spirit abilities or more spirit examples. Depending upon culture or environment the same animal can be associated with different characteristics or abilities or a different animals associated with a specific characteristic.

5. Fighter
a. Move the fighter subclass to first level or create a Light Fighter Variant option at Level 1. In addition to the Musketeers, in at least one version of both Zorro and the Count of Monte Cristo, were trained as warrior with battlemaster type maneuvers with Zorro having the Criminal background and Edmound later multiclassing to Rogue (Mastermind?). This is also useful for groups that do not use feats or multiclassing.
b. more archetypes based on real world cultures, legends, and myth.

6. Monk
a. split the class into two classes or create a broader Martial Artist class with monk being a subclass. Currently, every concept with unarmed fighting and ki (or some similar ability) seems to gets lumped in a subclass even when many of the base class abilities don't fit the archetype.
b. a first level Iron Monk variant based on Strength/Con and representative of more Hard styles
c. allow for more player choice and customization of martial arts styles.

7. Paladin: provide a non-spellcasting (or lesser spellcasting version) variant similar to Holy Warrior variant from the 3e Complete Champion

8. Ranger: provide a non-spellcasting (or lesser spellcasting version) variant similar to Champion of the Wild variant from the Complete Champion

9. Rogue
Not all rogues are thieves and this create an awkward transition for those multiclassing into the Scout and Swashbuckler
a. add a Level 1: Wilderness Rogue variant at Level 1 to bridge. This would provide a few skills swaps, replaement for thieves tools with an outdoor related kit, and an optional variant for Thieves' Cant (perhaps Signals and Trail Signs).
b. Level 1: provide an options for educated and scholarly rogues with no affiliation to a thieves guild. Options would include a variant to swap Thieves Guild with an extra language, optional skill swaps, and options that replace thieves tools with another tool or kit.
c. variants that replace Elusive, Slippery Mind

10. Sorcerer
1. Provide an Arcane Heritage for those coming from a lineage of sorcerers or otherwise have a natural inborn talent for magic (e.g. Sabrina and Tabitha from Bewitched, Merlin from BBCs Merlin)
2. Provide a Fey Heritage
3. Provide an Abyssal Fiend Heritage
4. Provide an Infernal Fiend Heritage (e.g. Damien in the Omen, both Damien Hellstrom (Son of Satan) and Satana from Marvel Comics)

11. Warlock: if it has not been done, Patrons for each of the Arch-Devils and Demon Princes with unique abilities appropriate to the Demon or Devil in question.

12. Wizard: Go back to 2e Tome of Magic and PO: Spells and Magic and convert the remaining Effect Specialists and Thaumaturgical Wizards.

 

[darjr]

My players give me very hard choices when it comes to lendary resistance. Often the monks stun is the least of it so that’s what it gets.

 

[John R Davis]

Bards are always really effective. Almost every campaign I have ran or played had one.

 

[Gladius Legis]

same, what do you dis like about them?

Quick summary of my comments:

Berserker Barbarian: Frenzy should have two uses without incurring exhaustion, exhausting starts on the third use, the additional attack should be added to the Attack action so Polearm Master characters still have a reason to be a Berserker. Also base Intimidating Presence on Strength.

Assassin Rogue: Buff the bonus proficiencies to Expertise in the disguise and poisoner's kit. Also free proficiency + Expertise in Stealth. (Modeling off what the Scout gets here at the same level.) Add proficiency bonus used for initiative rolls to Assassinate. Add martial weapons proficiency and allow Assassins to Sneak Attack with any weapon. Add some sort of poisoning abilities at levels 9 and 13; I suggested something akin to the 4e Executioner that would allow the Assassin to create makeshift poisons based on what types of poisons the Assassin is familiar with at the end of every long rest, and said poisons disintegrate at the end of the day if not used. Level 13 could be the Assassin being able to bypass poison resistance. Re-do Death Strike so it has some component that always works regardless of surprise or not.

Monk: Martial Arts sucks at scaling its damage. Needs more ki. Stunning Strike needs to cost (a lot) more ki, while other abilities should cost less.

Ranger: Pretty much ripped the whole class. Needs full Expertise like the Bard gets. Natural Explorer was just bad; it either renders exporation irrelevant or it doesn't work, period. Favored terrains need to confer a constant benefit based on what terrain is selected (easy example: Arctic = cold resistance). Suggested Hunter's Mark be changed from a spell to a class feature that does not cost bonus action or concentration (same with Hex for Warlock). Suggested Favored Enemy be retooled to something that grants the Ranger automatic and permanent benefits of Hunter's Mark on the creature types it selected. Also ripped its so-called high-level features because they all suck. Vanish needed to be at least 8 levels earlier, then replaced with hiding vs. blindsight, truesight and tremorsense. Feral Senses should just be permanent truesight. The capstone should be literally anything but what it is. Also suggested applying all of Tasha's improvements to the PHB Beast Master.

 

[Undrave]

I mean, having only one optimal stat spread and one optimal play line is a non-caster problem in general, not a monk problem specifically.

True but you can build for different stat line. The Monk is very strict: You need your DEX to hit, dmg and AC, you need your WIS for your AC and your saving throw AND you need CON to make sure you don't fold the moment someone hits you.

That’d be the problem of feel I was alluding to. Monks keep up just fine on paper, but it often feels like they take too much micromanagement for not enough payoff.

I'm also not a fan of their durability. They have a very low HD for somebody in melee and their AC isn't THAT good that they can't expect to take hits. They should be a D10 class. And their damage doesn't feel high enough to qualify as a 'glass canon', especially if you expand Ki to take bonus action dodge or disengage.

It probably doesn't help that the other two melee characters in my party are a Paladin and a Barbarian, so the DM is used to characters who can take some SERIOUS hits so he might be over compensating in his encounter building.

I dunno, I feel like they’re highly mobile and deal heavy damage to individual targets. But I recognize they feel off to many.

The damage is okay but I feel like I hit a Fighter that's not optimized for damage.

These are the times to use Flurry of Blows

Which I do. I just mean that Stunning Strike sounds amazing on paper but it never really pulled through for me. Either it was the bad pick or people just shook it off.

That’s rough. It could be that your DM’s encounter building tendencies make monks a worse choice than they might otherwise be.

That might be it yeah.

 

[Bolares]

Burning legendary resistance uses is a pretty good use of Ki.

Exactly! Every time we find a encounter with legendary resistances my group (specially the mage) looks at me to burn all the resistances, and while I do that it's their job to keep me alive. Also, using ki points to teleport, cast darkness or flurry of blows is also a good option in most combats. Just because Stunning strike is OP, doesn't make a monk a bad choice.

 

[CleverNickName]

which four?

If I had my way? There would only be four classes: Mage, Priest, Thief, and Warrior. All other classes (and their subclasses) would be rewritten to be subclasses of one of these four.