D&D 5E Does the Artificer Suck?

[Ashrym]

is whole thread, is there anything on the table here beside something close to a discussion of suck/not suck as a function of DPR or something similar? If it's just about 'better' in that most white-roomy of ways I'll softly clos

Yes. It's just hidden in conversation that keeps getting drawn back to damage. I'll give you a 3 step process to save time.

1. Read what I wrote.
2. Understand that I am correct.
3. It's miller time.

Done deal.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Rangers don't have that many usesfor bonus actions.

That is not what my experience suggests...
Actually the opposite...

Cough hunters mark cough twf cough beastmaster...

 

[Zardnaar]

That is not what my experience suggests...
Actually the opposite...

Cough hunters mark cough twf cough beastmaster...

Don't dual wield hunters mark depends on situation.

Context was.
2/4 artificers use their bonus action for major class features.
1/4 outright suck avoid.

And the other one is an armorer who can really make much use of things like CBE or great weapon master bonus action ability.

A basic not beastmaster ranger with a bow and sharpshooter can be a lot more effective than an artificer at dealing damage.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Don't dual wield hunters mark depends on situation.

Context was.
2/4 artificers use their bonus action for major class features.
1/4 outright suck avoid.

And the other one is an armorer who can really make much use of things like CBE or great weapon master bonus action ability.

A basic not beastmaster ranger with a bow and sharpshooter can be a lot more effective than an artificer at dealing damage.

If damage is your only metric, you may be right.
That is not what you want out of an artificer.
Even the alchemist has quite a few useful features. Especially if you don't even try to buff yourself and instead use infusions for actual support.

 

[Zardnaar]

If damage is your only metric, you may be right.
That is not what you want out of an artificer.
Even the alchemist has quite a few useful features. Especially if you don't even try to buff yourself and instead use infusions for actual support.

3/4 are designed for combat going by their class features.

If you give your infusions away you're making yourself weaker.

If you want to play support pick a better class.

 

[Ashrym]

Don't dual wield hunters mark depends on situation.

Context was.
2/4 artificers use their bonus action for major class features.
1/4 outright suck avoid.

And the other one is an armorer who can really make much use of things like CBE or great weapon master bonus action ability.

A basic not beastmaster ranger with a bow and sharpshooter can be a lot more effective than an artificer at dealing damage.

That 1/4 you're calling out as sucks uses the bonus action with spells in the exact same way the clerics you were calling out as good. Shall we continue our comparison and I'll switch to alchemists? They don't suck either. They trade/delay some damage for versatility over other artificers; and have a similar issue as clerics burning through slots for bonus damage compared to other artificers, but they still have tool expertise, flash of genius, and infusions compared to cleric. Compared to other artificers they add extra healing and versatility in elixirs.

Claiming a class or subclass "sucks" is strong terminology and isn't correct in it's use when looking at the best examples against which to compare instead of looking at the average baseline and looking at how far or above that baseline the build might perform.

There are two points on the class that might turn a person off:

1. Pew pew. Infusions are great but the class often relies on spamming weapon attacks or a limited number of cantrips. Not everyone likes that.
2. 3.x bardism. In the shadow of a more focused class. Artificers are not "the best" at pretty much anything. Some players want to excel in certain areas.

Regarding point 2, not being the best is not the same thing as being the worst, sucking, or even bad in general. Baselines don't start at the top when measuring.

 

[Ashrym]

3/4 are designed for combat going by their class features.

If you give your infusions away you're making yourself weaker.

If you want to play support pick a better class.

Class features like tool expertise, flash of genius, infusions, right tool for the job, spell casting, magic item adept/expert/savant/master, spell storing item, soul of the artifice? Most class features have nothing to do with combat. Some subclass features are related to combat and that's less than the number of non-combat features.

 

[Zardnaar]

Class features like tool expertise, flash of genius, infusions, right tool for the job, spell casting, magic item adept/expert/savant/master, spell storing item, soul of the artifice? Most class features have nothing to do with combat. Some subclass features are related to combat and that's less than the number of non-combat features.

Sone of those abilities come later where I've already said the artificer picks up steam.

The first few levels are the critical parts though. Tool use is inferior to skill use the best tool is also a rogue thing they can take expertise in.

They're only half casters that don't get that many spell slots and they don't really deal much extra dage with them like paladins and Rangers.

And it's conditional damage to boot on 2/4 classes.

Sure they get some class features but so do other classes. Is the opportunity cost.

And the opportunity cost involved in not commanding you turret or mechanical beast if you want to use your bonus action for anything else.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

3/4 are designed for combat going by their class features.

If you give your infusions away you're making yourself weaker.

If you want to play support pick a better class.

Your entire POV on artificers is…extremely odd, to me.

The class is built to “give away” their infusions, it absolutely doesn’t make themselves weaker.

The idea upthread that artificers don’t make good use of their bonus actions…is just incredible.

 

[Zardnaar]

Your entire POV on artificers is…extremely odd, to me.

The class is built to “give away” their infusions, it absolutely doesn’t make themselves weaker.

The idea upthread that artificers don’t make good use of their bonus actions…is just incredible.

No I said they didn't get the same benefit from various feats as other half casters due to their bonus action being tied up.