D&D 5E Transitioning to Combat

[Northern Phoenix]

Personally, the moment combat is about to start for any reason, it goes to initiative. Various circumstances simply determine the "Surprise" situation. I don't let anything completely "skip" or otherwise bypass the initiative mechanic unless it's completely and utterly incidental (i.e if a level 10+ Ranger wants to kill a non-story-relevant regular wolf, i'd just say "roll to kill wolf").

 

[GMMichael]

I think a couple of the responses are missing the actual question here: when is combat?

My TL;DR answer: combat is when opposing parties can react to each other offensively. Unless both parties have offensive intent, there's no need to roll initiative.

And Kord himself would be offended by the notion that attacks can't happen out of combat, but that's another thread.

 

[Steampunkette]

I like to shout out "Clickety Clackity Roll for Attackity!" so people roll for initiative!

More seriously:

• Example 1: Negotiation between the party and a troupe of adversaries (drows for example), everyone is seeing that this is going to get sour, and PCs and NPCs both want to be prepared for when hostilities start, but no one wants to be the one that actually start it. How do you deal with this ?

Wait'll someone swings. Until that point combat hasn't started. Though if you wish to force the matter, have your players roll an "Insight Initiative" to act as soon as they recognize the enemy is about to draw steel with the NPCs rolling either Deception or Insight for initiative, as well.

• Example 2: An assassin wants to make sure to have the drop on his unsuspecting target, who is in the next room with a locked door and a potentially noisy lock...

Have the assassin roll a Lockpicking Check and oppose it with the Perception of the unsuspecting target. If he gets through without alerting the victim, problem solved. Alternatively, present them both as initiative checks.

• Exemple 3: The target of an assassination contract suspects an assassin is lurking in the next room, he wants to ensure that there is as few chances of him being surprised as possible...

Block the doors and windows from the inside. You can't "Pick" a heavy wooden dresser pressed to the opposite side of the door. Nor windows that are nailed shut.

• Example 4: Ambush ! The party wants to coordinate their attacks to that they all surprise the column of orcs in the ravine below. How do they achieve this ?

Tell them to tell you what they're doing on the first round, describe it all happening at once if they manage to be stealthy enough to ambush, then run combat normally.

• Example 5: Knifing in the street. A PC rogue wants to walk up to a politician at the agora and knife him in the back and make sure that he can achieve a quick get away despite the guards, both the bodyguards of the politician and the city guards around.

Players roll a Deception Check for Initiative against the Bodyguard's Insight Check Initiative. The Politician goes on a 1.

 

[Gradine]

All I know is that this is making me want to pick up some classic Assassin's Creed.

 

[Ancalagon]

easy, when you can see it the intent to kill in their eyes!

 

[Lyxen]

Hi guys, thanks for all the replies, and my apologies for taking so long to respond. I see that a lot of suggestions have been made, here are my comments:

• @commandercrud, @DemoMonkey, @Charlaquin, @Bill Zebub, @Umbran, @Blue, @Northern Phoenix, @Steampunkette : when someone declares an action that initiates combat, roll initiative, initiative is king, everyone wants to be ready for combat.
  • While I agree that everyone would like to be ready for combat, some are not entitled to whereas others are, have prepared for it and are ready. Therefore, for me, it's a bit harsh to ignore the preparation, and I don't like the fact that combat suddenly wipes out everything that has gone on before. We've had many discussions with the DMs at our tables, and barring one exception, we all feel that it's a bit too much like a computer game switching to combat mode.
• @el-remmen : Roll initiative before combat so that even discussion can be timed and done in order and last minute actions before combat can be taken into combat.
  • I honestly really like that one, and we have been using it now and then in particular because it also controls those situations when everyone wants to speak at the same time, some to inflame the situation, others to calm it down. My main criticism of it is that it makes the discussions a but unnatural and combat becomes almost impossible to avoid, but the structure is good.
• @el-remmen : Advantage on initiative for assassin.
  • This one is a bit complicated for me, the assassin already has so many advantages linked to winning initiative, it becomes really overkill, and hard to tailor, why for him, under which condition, etc.
• @Steampunkette : Roll initiative against Insight check of bodyguard, assign Inititiative of 1 to clueless
  • Again, a good suggestions, just some that are hard to assess as to their applicability, whether it's a very local ruling or something that can happen often, and the circumstances in which it is allowed.
• @el-remmen : Making the (first) attack out of initiative
  • This is something that I have tried before, but it's slightly unsatisfactory, because it completely removes the effect of initiative, as well as being (as above) hard to assess what is the rationale for doing it sometimes and not all the time.
• @Quickleaf, @Ovinomancer, @Blue, @Steampunkette : lots of good suggestions about problem solving in general and playing smart, which are excellent, but less about the actual transitioning to combat.
• @GMMichael : Just a point, you don't need both sides to want combat, for me one side is sufficient...
• @Umbran: Hold (Ready, I think) Actions
  • This is the closest to the solution that I'm using. The only thing is that, theoretically, Ready actions are only combat actions, so combat must have started for them to be used.
  • So this is one of my very few departure from the RAW, I allow characters to ready actions outside of combat.
  • Some advantages: It's part of the game system, it's not a new mechanic, and it's easy to put in place, as well as easy to know when it's allowed.
  • It's also limited just like ready actions are, because you need to be specific about the trigger, and that trigger actually has to happen otherwise the action is lost. And you can ready a single action, which is a further limitation.
  • In turn this requires everyone to be clever about what they are looking for and about their response. It's also reasonably linked to roleplaying.
  • And of course, I allow it for NPCs too.
  • For me, it really solves each of the five examples in a fairly elegant way, assuming of course that whoever is playing in these situations thinks clearly and projects himself in the game world to imagine what could happen and how they would react.

I hope I have not forgotten or misrepresented anyone. In any case, thanks for all the really good solutions, would be happy to continue the discussion of course.

 

[el-remmen]

@Lyxen To be clear, my suggestion about advantage was not meant to be an "always" rule, but in the spirit of 5E's "rulings" and something the DM can grant when it seems reasonable given the situation but no specific rule applies.

 

[Lyxen]

@Lyxen To be clear, my suggestion about advantage was not meant to be an "always" rule, but in the spirit of 5E's "rulings" and something the DM can grant when it seems reasonable given the situation but no specific rule applies.

I know, and as such it is completely within the spirit of 5e, local rulings and using the advantage/disadvantage mechanics.

Just to be clear, it's just that I have an assassin in the campaign that I'm currently running, he's one of our few powergamers left (assassin/gloomstalker optimised for first strike sigh), and I'm reluctant to provide him with tools that he could consistently try to use to trigger all his first strike advantages.

 

[Umbran]

• @Umbran: Hold (Ready, I think) Actions
  • This is the closest to the solution that I'm using. The only thing is that, theoretically, Ready actions are only combat actions, so combat must have started for them to be used.
  • So this is one of my very few departure from the RAW, I allow characters to ready actions outside of combat.

So, I'm glad, because I find part of the objection to this to be... torturous rules-mongering, no matter what Jeremy Crawford thinks.

In the rules Ready appears in the "actions in combat" section. However, Cast Spells, Help, Hide, Search, and Use Objects are all things characters can clearly do outside of combat, so merely appearing on the Actions in Combat list doesn't mean you can't do it other times! While Crawford has his take on it, the rules a written don't explicitly prohibit it.

The stronger argument, though, is that, "I ready to pull the lever as soon as the Evil Duke enters the room," should be a perfectly cromulent declaration for your character's action. Any rules interpretation that does not allow for such needs to go into the ashcan.

If that's not enough, we can note that in the case of ambush, the Readied action won't happen outside of combat. Bob says that he intends to start combat. Jill readies to go after Bob. John readies to go after Jill. Sarah readies to go after John. None of the readied actions will happen before Bob starts the fight! It's fine!

For those who are supremely picky, we can note that this can all backfire spectacularly if Bob doesn't get surprise.

 

[Northern Phoenix]

Hi guys, thanks for all the replies, and my apologies for taking so long to respond. I see that a lot of suggestions have been made, here are my comments:

• @commandercrud, @DemoMonkey, @Charlaquin, @Bill Zebub, @Umbran, @Blue, @Northern Phoenix, @Steampunkette : when someone declares an action that initiates combat, roll initiative, initiative is king, everyone wants to be ready for combat.
  • While I agree that everyone would like to be ready for combat, some are not entitled to whereas others are, have prepared for it and are ready. Therefore, for me, it's a bit harsh to ignore the preparation, and I don't like the fact that combat suddenly wipes out everything that has gone on before. We've had many discussions with the DMs at our tables, and barring one exception, we all feel that it's a bit too much like a computer game switching to combat mode.

If you are sufficiently prepared, and your opponent is sufficiently unprepared, they will be "Surprised" and will not be able to do anything in the first turn of combat regardless of the initial initiative role, so there is still a benefit for setting up an ambush or whatever.