Pathfinder 2E PF2: Second Attempt Post Mortem

[The-Magic-Sword]

But at level isnt really a constant, youre doing objectively harder things, and you never got that level of skill, its like grade level, just because you did well with addition and subtraction (at level math for kindergarten) doesnt mean you will automatically do well with Algebra 2 (at level math for a 10th grader) theyre different tasks, the numerical increase in difficulty is a simulation not an illusion.

 

[Staffan]

But at level isnt really a constant, youre doing objectively harder things, and you never got that level of skill, its like grade level, just because you did well with addition and subtraction (at level math for kindergarten) doesnt mean you will automatically do well with Algebra 2 (at level math for a 10th grader) theyre different tasks, the numerical increase in difficulty is a simulation not an illusion.

And that might be realistic, but it's not fun.

If I'm facing a level 1 foe at level 1, I have many ways of dealing with them. I can try to outrun them (Athletics). I can try to turn them to my side (Diplomacy). I can try to coerce them (Intimidate). I can try to fool them (Deception). I can try to understand them (whatever knowledge skill is appropriate).

But at level 8, or even higher, facing an 8th level foe, some of those avenues will be harder than they were at level 1 against the level 1 foe. My competence, relative to the challenges I'm facing, have narrowed.

It doesn't matter that I'm much better at dealing with, say, a level 4 foe at 8th level even in my weaker areas, because the chances of a 4th level thing being a narratively meaningful challenge are nil.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

And that might be realistic, but it's not fun.

If I'm facing a level 1 foe at level 1, I have many ways of dealing with them. I can try to outrun them (Athletics). I can try to turn them to my side (Diplomacy). I can try to coerce them (Intimidate). I can try to fool them (Deception). I can try to understand them (whatever knowledge skill is appropriate).

But at level 8, or even higher, facing an 8th level foe, some of those avenues will be harder than they were at level 1 against the level 1 foe. My competence, relative to the challenges I'm facing, have narrowed.

It doesn't matter that I'm much better at dealing with, say, a level 4 foe at 8th level even in my weaker areas, because the chances of a 4th level thing being a narratively meaningful challenge are nil.

Disagree with the bolded assertion of it not being fun, we're objectively having a great time ; )

But quips aside, I think your standards for competence are too high for this kind of game and i disagree about lower level things not being meaningful, they certainly can be-- the king you're convincing doesn't have to be your level to have political influence you need, unlocking a door in the middle of a fight you cant win to facilitate a retreat in the right direction doesnt have to be a high level lock.

Spell effects dont have to be higher level than you to be worth dispelling and athletics checks will often deal with things that have no buiness being assigned arbitrarily high levels.

 

[Retreater]

It's at least good to see that people are passionate enough about Pathfinder to discuss how to make it more to each player's taste. That says something about the core game experience.
Maybe one of these days I'll take part in a game of it that isn't as much of an experiment and more just experiencing the game.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Disagree with the bolded assertion of it not being fun, we're objectively having a great time ; )

But quips aside, I think your standards for competence are too high for this kind of game and i disagree about lower level things not being meaningful, they certainly can be-- the king you're convincing doesn't have to be your level to have political influence you need, unlocking a door in the middle of a fight you cant win to facilitate a retreat in the right direction doesnt have to be a high level lock.

Spell effects dont have to be higher level than you to be worth dispelling and athletics checks will often deal with things that have no buiness being assigned arbitrarily high levels.

How is this handled in published adventures? My understanding was that PF2 adventures did in fact follow the treadmill @Staffan describes, but I have not looked myself.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

How is this handled in published adventures? My understanding was that PF2 adventures did in fact follow the treadmill @Staffan describes, but I have not looked myself.

No idea, I'm a homebrew GM, I saw a decent spread in malevolence but its only level 3.

 

[!DWolf]

So this is a reminder that table 10-4 exists (and should be the default for non-leveled tasks). As characters levels up, as long as they are at least trained, they become increasingly better at most skill based tasks.

 

[CapnZapp]

You can absolutely do waves in Pathfinder 2.

You're getting exactly zero help from the guidelines, but you can do it.

What overwhelms a party is when they're asked to handle "too many" monsters at the same time (where the value of "too many" differs between different party and monster compositions).

In other words, you can exceed the encounter budgets quite spectacularly, if you only give heroes some "breathing space" - monsters aren't arriving faster than they can be killed off and/or the constant pressure (attacks, damage, penalties) is manageable.

Even as little as splitting apart a great monster force in two groups with as little as a round or two delaying the second half from reinforcing the first can make a huge difference in the resulting challenge and encounter difficulty.

I mean this quite literally. Take a group of six monsters that makes up a Severe encounter. Split these in half and have the second half arrive one round later than the first half. Your encounter could go from Severe all the way down to Trivial!

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So you'll just have to experiment. At one end of the scale, a party can handle a near-infinite stream of sufficiently low-level foes.

But you should be able to observe how many foes your party can dispatch, on average, every round (without novaing, i e. at a somewhat sustainable rate).

This gives you an idea of how fast reinforcements can arrive "safely".

Just to make up an example: one level - 3 critter arrive every round (on average) and one level ± 0 lieutenant arrives every three rounds (on average).

Of course depending on the abilities and defenses of said critters...

That's low level figures. At level 15 or 20 you can increase that pretty significantly.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

So this is a reminder that table 10-4 exists (and should be the default for non-leveled tasks). As characters levels up, as long as they are at least trained, they become increasingly better at most skill based tasks.

Do the published adventures follow that table?

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

No idea, I'm a homebrew GM, I saw a decent spread in malevolence but its only level 3.

Ok, so what your discussing doesn’t directly relate to what the OP is discussing. Got it - thanks!