Pathfinder 2E PF2: Second Attempt Post Mortem

[!DWolf]

Do the published adventures follow that table?

Yes.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Yes.

That’s good to hear.

 

[Retreater]

Do the published adventures follow that table?

I've run only three official adventures, but none of them seemed regularly to include defined activities that would've used these simple DCs. I'm guessing they assume the GM can use those DCs on-the-fly to resolve actions their players attempt that aren't typical in playtests. That type of guidance and freedom with the rules is something I like.
The more we discuss PF2, I am finding my biggest issue might be the presentation of the CRB. For example, I remember the chart for levelled DCs not this Simple DCs chart. Because the Simple DCs chart takes up less room, it doesn't get as much attention, and I am not clear when to use which chart.
So again like the Leap vs High Jump action distinction I saw earlier, WTH not just have one chart for assigning DCs? They end up similar enough.

 

[kenada]

The more we discuss PF2, I am finding my biggest issue might be the presentation of the CRB. For example, I remember the chart for levelled DCs not this Simple DCs chart. Because the Simple DCs chart takes up less room, it doesn't get as much attention, and I am not clear when to use which chart.

This was one of the other issues for me too. Even after a year of running PF2, I never felt like I had a mastery of the system. The way the CRB was organized and written was not helpful for me in practice.

 

[Staffan]

How is this handled in published adventures? My understanding was that PF2 adventures did in fact follow the treadmill @Staffan describes, but I have not looked myself.

There's a bit of both, to be honest. The treadmill is definitely there, but it's not everywhere. But it is there in every actual encounter. You want to Recall Knowledge about those things you're fighting? Better hope you're specialized in the relevant knowledge skill and/or Lore. You don't want to be killed dead by a trap? Better have a ranger or rogue in the party to spot it, and hope someone's pumped Thievery to the max in order to have even a reasonable chance of success.

(Traps are a bit of a special case because they suffer from pushing difficulty classes in two ways. Traps are designed to have higher DCs than the normal level chart, for some reason. Then complex traps count as a same-level creature when building an encounter. But a "standard" encounter against same-level creatures are against two foes, so if you're going to have a trap as the thing in an encounter it will be level+2 which means even a hyper-specialist is in big trouble. An 8th level character would max out Thievery at +19 or so (+14 Master, +4 Dex, +1 Item), and a level 10 trap would have a Disable DC of 32.)

What's more pernicious in my opinion are character abilities with scaling DCs. For example, if I take the bard feat Lingering Composition, I get the lingering composition focus spell, which lets me extend the duration of a composition cantrip (e.g. inspire courage) from 1 to 3 rounds on a successful Performance check (4 on a crit). Basically, this means that I'll be saving an action per round over the next two rounds. Successful against what DC? Well, "usually a standard-difficulty DC of a level equal to the highest-level target of your composition", or in 90% or more of cases equal to my own level. I find this design... well, infuriating is a bit strong, but strongly annoying. I shouldn't have to roll for my buff spells. If you want to reward boosting Performance, a better design would be something like basing the additional duration on my Performance proficiency.

I remember back in the playtest, they wanted a similar thing for Treat Wounds, but there we managed to make them think better of it.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Ok, so what your discussing doesn’t directly relate to what the OP is discussing. Got it - thanks!

Careful, the passive aggression is showing-- but more specifically its related in so far as an evaluation of the system as a whole probably shouldn't be dependent on the skill of whoever happened to write a particular book of a particular adventure. A lack of simple DCs in them might be valid criticism of the adventures, but a less than valid criticism of the system as a whole, that includes them at the top of the page where the leveled DC chart can be found for a reason.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Careful, the passive aggression is showing-- but more specifically its related in so far as an evaluation of the system as a whole probably shouldn't be dependent on the skill of whoever happened to write a particular book of a particular adventure. A lack of simple DCs in them might be valid criticism of the adventures, but a less than valid criticism of the system as a whole, that includes them at the top of the page where the leveled DC chart can be found for a reason.

I agree!

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, being over fatigued by boss encounters might be what I'm experiencing from my recent foray into PF2. I do wonder how waves of enemies can or cant work in PF2. Also, how to spice up environments more, maybe have some hazards on the battlefield something to spice it up?

That's one of those cases where as much as some people have a reflexive aversion to D&D 4e, examining it for ideas might be useful here.

Regarding waves--its hard to say, and depends a lot of how they arrive. Obviously not getting time to regenerate any Focus Points or do post-combat healing is going to make it harder than two completely separate encounters, but how much harder is a good question. It becomes even more a question if reinforcements arrive while the first part of the combat is still finishing up; its not as dangerous as just having them there the whole time, but how much less?

I suspect it would require some experimenting to figure out.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It's at least good to see that people are passionate enough about Pathfinder to discuss how to make it more to each player's taste. That says something about the core game experience.
Maybe one of these days I'll take part in a game of it that isn't as much of an experiment and more just experiencing the game.

In some ways its also hard to get a feel for it from a purely GM position, I'd think; I'm fortunate that I've gotten to play it long before I'd need to run it (not the usual thing with me), so I can see the things that can be fun (and a few that are less so) in a far more visceral way.

 

[Gorgon Zee]

Traps are a bit of a special case because they suffer from pushing difficulty classes in two ways. Traps are designed to have higher DCs than the normal level chart, for some reason. Then complex traps count as a same-level creature when building an encounter. But a "standard" encounter against same-level creatures are against two foes, so if you're going to have a trap as the thing in an encounter it will be level+2 which means even a hyper-specialist is in big trouble. An 8th level character would max out Thievery at +19 or so (+14 Master, +4 Dex, +1 Item), and a level 10 trap would have a Disable DC of 32.)

This is potentially true if you have one character versus a full level+2 hazard, but encounters are meant to be for a group? So we can assume a group of people. Just for fun, I'll use my containment specialist wizard as an example. She's level 9 wizard and professional dancer, so has good dex, but only trained thievery, so +15 (+11 Trained, +3 dex, +1 item). Nowhere near a specialist.

If she's handling a trap in an encounter, it'll probably be level 9 -- the bottomless pit hazard (p524) has a DC of 28, so I'd need a 13 to defeat it. The level 11 trap on page 525 has a DC of 28, but I'd need to be an expert to try it -- if I was, though, I'd only need 11 to defeat it. Jumping all the way to a level+3 trap, that's a DC 32 and needs me to hit a 17, which is above my pay grade,

But for DC 28 trap at level+2, where I need a 13 (ignoring the expert requirement); what are my chances of defeating it?

Naively, 8/20 or 40%. Not great, but not unexpected. But at this level I can get a heroism or a nudge fate or some help to make me only need a 12. It's rare an ally cannot add me, so I'll take another +1 bonus ¾ of the time (assuming someone like me was assisting me), so it's an 11 -- I'll succeed 50% of the time.

But wait -- I'm a magician. Is there any spell that can help me? Why yes, I can cast Diviner's Sight as a focus spell -- effectively free if I can wait 10 minutes after, otherwise a minor cost, to get two rolls for that 11+, so now I am going to succeed 75% of the time.

But here's the real kicker -- if I fail, nothing happens. The trap doesn't trigger and I can try again! So if the trap is the only thing I have to worry about, I can make as many 2-action disable checks as I like until I either succeed (rolling 11+) or critically fail (rolling 1).

So, for good dex character with minimal training aginst a level+2 trap, if they have no magical assistance they succeed if they can roll 11+ before they roll a 1. And I can always hero point if I'm super-unlucky!

PF2 traps are dangerous only if you don't notice them, if you are in a time-critical situation, or you fail to understand how to disable them. Otherwise it's just a question of how long it takes to disable them. And even if you critically fail your check, you are taking about half your hit points in damage from the trap and that's pretty much it.