D&D General Styles of Roleplaying and Characters

[Bill Zebub]

It doesn't have to be about challenging someone's decision so much as discussing the decision. Not "your character wouldn't do that" so much as "why did you decide your character would do that?" or maybe even "I was surprised that you had your character do X".

I think these kinds of conversations are interesting, and they can be helpful. They can also, of course, go wrong if people don't handle the situation properly. If it's an open session to question every other player's choices, then yeah, that's probably not productive.

Agreed. It's 100% about whether the motivation/attitude going in. If the point is to school the player on proper roleplaying, then no. Just no. But if it's more about "hey, we obviously are looking at things differently, and maybe a conversation will help us both learn something " then that makes a lot of sense.

Actually, that would also apply to threads like this.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I didn't miss those examples. I didn't see them presented in such a way that they were conducive to the discussion of "I like this kind of thing, here's how it works in XYZ" They were presented, rather, in the context of "I'm redefining a common phrase that has a common meaning, and here's an example to prove why I'm right and you're wrong for not accepting my more elevated use of the terms than the plebian use that you bitterly cling to."

Or at least it seems that the responses have generally been interpreting them that way, and that's the general tenor of the discussion overall. Semantical arguments that completely sideline the conversation that you're TRYING to have can probably be better read as a more articulate or defensive statement that boils down to "I don't like your tone!" Unless they really boil down to "I don't even understand what you're talking about because you're not using the words in the way that people usually use the words." And sometimes, it's "Yeah, yeah, I see that you're trying to define things using those terms, but that's not what that means, and I can't get over the fact that you're using the words in a way that is totally incongruent with how they are usually used. It's a major distraction. Try rephrasing."

The semantic argument is not one of my making. I picked terms (and strong dispute there's a common understanding of these), defined them, and then made an argument with them. The response that those words could mean something else is the semantic argument -- I don't care what we call it, I found exploration/expression to be useful for my interests but am totally open to other terms if exploration is to precious to use. However, I don't think the terms I've used are the problem at all - the complaints about my wording (the actual semantic argument) won't really change if I use different terms unless I pick such loaded terms as "BEST play" for what everyone's trying to claim and "SHITTIEST PLAY" for my points.

In other words, the term "exploration" makes no difference to the root of my argument.

 

[Bill Zebub]

On the whole "explore your character" thing I'm still not understanding the difference. Or, at least, why one is "explore" and the other is not. In one case you're making a choice and in the other a choice is being made for you, but if it's leading to something you weren't planning, it's still "exploring" new ideas. Sure, you may choose the well-worn path, but the dice might also choose it for you.

I can see how somebody who never explored new ideas might benefit from the dice (let's say 50% of the time), but somebody who always explore new things would be constrained by the dice (the other 50% of the time).

Ergo...
1) I will agree that exploring new character concepts can be fun (but is not mandatory for fun).
2) Two ways this can happen are by player choice, and by external imposition.

What exactly is the argument that one is substantively better, or even just different, than the other?

 

[Maxperson]

Heh, @Aldarc and @pemerton, you have rightly hit the nail on the head.

For some reason, it is perfectly acceptable for the mechanics to dictate your actions, but, for some reason, things like emotional responses, while just as involuntary and beyond a person's control as missing with an attack, are completely unbelievable and rip people from their immersion.

I would LOVE to meet people whose control over their emotional responses were so completely under their control that no matter what, no matter what the stimulus or in the face of anything, they are 100% in control at all times.

For me it's not about my PC having 100% control. It's a player/DM issue. If I determine that my PC get embarrassed and blushes when the queen smiles at him, that's an emotional response that the PC is not in control of. It happened involuntarily to him as decided by me, the player. If the DM tries to take control of my PC and dictate to me that my PC becomes embarrassed and blushes when the queen smiles at him, that's a problem. The DM has no business trying to control my PC like that.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It doesn't have to be about challenging someone's decision so much as discussing the decision. Not "your character wouldn't do that" so much as "why did you decide your character would do that?" or maybe even "I was surprised that you had your character do X".

I think these kinds of conversations are interesting, and they can be helpful. They can also, of course, go wrong if people don't handle the situation properly. If it's an open session to question every other player's choices, then yeah, that's probably not productive.

The OP stated, in pertinent part (the part I picked up on):
How would you feel if either the GM or the player of another player character wanted to have a conversation to critique your play or discuss why you performed a particular action? Would you be open to critiques around fictional positioning?

To critique is to evaluate in a detailed and analytical way. Which is fine.

Except ... that's not a curious question. That's not, "Woah, I was surprised that Olaf the Selfish did something so altruistic! What's up with that?*"

To critique is to provide an evaluation. Which is not something I do, unbidden, to someone else's roleplaying decisions. YMMV.



*

 

[hawkeyefan]

Agreed. It's 100% about whether the motivation/attitude going in. If the point is to school the player on proper roleplaying, then no. Just no. But if it's more about "hey, we obviously are looking at things differently, and maybe a conversation will help us both learn something " then that makes a lot of sense.

Actually, that would also apply to threads like this.

Yeah, these conversations...whether with my gaming group or here on the forum...are helpful in my mind because they force me to actually think about what I do and why, which I might not otherwise do.

Ergo...
1) I will agree that exploring new character concepts can be fun (but is not mandatory for fun).
2) Two ways this can happen are by player choice, and by external imposition.

What exactly is the argument that one is substantively better, or even just different, than the other?

For me, I kind of agree that there is not as big a difference as some are saying, but I do think there are some differences.

With player choice, yes, I think you can be surprised. I think it's less likely, and I also think that ultimately you have the freedom to decide, so if you get to a decision point, and something pops into your head that makes you lean toward a surprising decision rather than the one you expected.....you can always choose the unsurprising and comfortable option if you want.

That surprising decision that may lead to you learning something new about the character is not binding if you don't want to go with it. In that sense, it's like rolling the dice and seeing the results, and then deciding if you want to go with them or ignore them.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Again, my point is, where is your cut off line? Is it ANY mechanics which impact the mental/emotional state of your character (besides flat our mind control of course)? And, if that's true, why is it acceptable that the DM can dictate your physical state? The DM can declare that you are now Exhausted, for example. So, any physical changes is perfectly fine, but, all mental ones are not?

I guess I'm just having a tough time seeing the difference. Your character is a high dexterity acrobat Rogue who routinely walks on tightropes, can climb a waterfall and has the reflexes of a cat. And I just made him look like a Keystone Kop because you failed a Perception check. How is that not impacting the portrayal of that character?

First off, I don't think your hyperbolic Keystone Kop argument holds water: just because a highly trained ninja fails to observe something doesn't make him look like an amateur. Unless, of course, that thing was completely obvious. In which case why did you make him roll? Ergo, if you made him look like a Keystone Kop the reason is that you made him look like a Keystone Kop.

But to the larger point, about why the cut-off line between physical and mental: it's because it's the only clear, objective line. If that line isn't there, where is it? Is it arbitrary? Since you tend to argue things by showing how it breaks if taken to the extreme (at least, that's the pattern I'm seeing from your posts in this thread) let's imagine a game in which the player doesn't get to make any decisions: you have to roll for every choice. On your turn in combat (which you got into because you looked up the Engage In Combat probability on the table on page 1,417 and rolled less than 32%) you roll on another table to see what your action is for the turn.

You keep saying how this is a roleplaying game and therefore it's about playing a role. Well, what comprises a "role"? Whether or not a sword cuts you? Or what decisions you make and emotions you have? I'll assume you'll agree it's the latter (if I'm wrong I'll be interested to hear the argument). So if you're not deciding emotions and actions, are you actually roleplaying?

Look, I get the arguments for why some imposed emotions/decisions can be interesting roleplaying...it's not my cup of tea, but I can appreciate the appeal...but can't you just lean on that for your arguments? Isn't "fun" a compelling enough reason? What's the point of claiming you don't see the difference between external (physical) states and internal (mental) states?

 

[hawkeyefan]

The OP stated, in pertinent part (the part I picked up on):
How would you feel if either the GM or the player of another player character wanted to have a conversation to critique your play or discuss why you performed a particular action? Would you be open to critiques around fictional positioning?

To critique is to evaluate in a detailed and analytical way. Which is fine.

Except ... that's not a curious question. That's not, "Woah, I was surprised that Olaf the Selfish did something so altruistic! What's up with that?*"

To critique is to provide an evaluation. Which is not something I do, unbidden, to someone else's roleplaying decisions. YMMV.



*

Yup, and my point is that it needn't be like that.

Just discussing, remember? Not arguing!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yup, and my point is that it needn't be like that.

Just discussing, remember? Not arguing!

Not arguing with you- explaining my answer in the context of the question.

If people volunteer, that's great. Honestly, it's my experience that you usually can't stop them from volunteering.

Sometimes, it's best to let the mystery linger. Most decisions seem a lot cooler until they're explained.

 

[Bill Zebub]

For me, I kind of agree that there is not as big a difference as some are saying, but I do think there are some differences.

With player choice, yes, I think you can be surprised. I think it's less likely, and I also think that ultimately you have the freedom to decide, so if you get to a decision point, and something pops into your head that makes you lean toward a surprising decision rather than the one you expected.....you can always choose the unsurprising and comfortable option if you want.

That surprising decision that may lead to you learning something new about the character is not binding if you don't want to go with it. In that sense, it's like rolling the dice and seeing the results, and then deciding if you want to go with them or ignore them.

I keep seeing the difference as between analogous to the difference in character creation between D&D 5e and, say, Traveler. In D&D you choose basically everything about your character you want to play, and in Traveler you roll a bunch of dice and then play the character the game gives you.

Both are cool. Both are fun.

But I'm struggling to see why there needs to be a huge philosophical debate about that difference. What exactly are people disagreeing about? (Sorry, sometimes I can be really slow on the uptake.). Is it just because if this happens during play it's crossing (or can cross) the line into internal mental state, and some folks (e.g. me) think this is the exclusive domain of the player?

If so, then, yeah, it does.