D&D 4E Ron Edwards on D&D 4e

[TerraDave]

One of the most influential RPG frameworks at present is PbtA. That was written by Vincent Baker. If you read the acknowledgements in the rulebook, you will see this (on p 287-88):

IMMEDIATE GAME INFLUENCES​

3:16, Gregor Hutton​

Ars Magica, Lion Rampant​

Bacchanal, Paul Czege​

The Burning Wheel, Luke Crane​

The Mountain Witch, Timothy Kleinert​

Mouse Guard, Luke Crane​

Primetime Adventures, Matt Wilson​

Shadow of Yesterday, Clinton R. Nixon​

Sorcerer; Sorcerer’s Soul; Sex & Sorcery, Ron Edwards​

Spione, Ron Edwards​

Talislanta, Bard Games​

Trollbabe, Ron Edwards​

XXXXtreme Street Luge, Ben Lehman​

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Character moves are based on secrets in The Shadow of Yesterday, by Clinton R. Nixon. Highlighted stats work very​

much like keys in the same.​

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Highlighted stats also follow fan mail in Primetime Adventures, by Matt Wilson.​

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Hx is based on trust in The Mountain Witch, by Timothy Kleinart.​

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Stakes questions are based on stakes in Trollbabe, by Ron Edwards.​

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Threat countdowns are based on bangs in Sorcerer, by Ron Edwards.​

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Holding creation (et al) is based on covenant creation in Ars Magica (2nd Edition), by Lion Rampant.​

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The character sex moves were inspired by Sex & Sorcerer, by Ron Edwards.​

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The character playbooks were inspired by XXXXtreme Street Luge, by Ben Lehman.​

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“Tell them the possible consequences and ask” and “offer an opportunity, with or without a cost” are based partly on “Taxi Service on Al Amarja” by Jonathan Tweet.​

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The entire game design follows from “Narrativism: Story Now” by Ron Edwards.​

I think the Forge has been extremely influential in RPG design.

So PBtA is an example of Forge influence, and directly of Edwards. It certainly seemed the best fit.

Its another branch of RPGs. It clearly influences a lot of designers, but is not part of the mainstream. Traditional gamey games like D&D, versions of D&D, and CoC obviously remain dominant.

I guess a game like Alien could be seen as drawing from the mainstream and a more narrativist approach. Though its my understanding that it really works in the simulationist sense.

But 4E is big G game. For better or worse, its all about the G.

 

[pemerton]

Where do the PbtA games rank in terms of how many people play them vs. other things?

I don't know. As per the rest of your post, I don't tend to equate popularity with influence.

 

[overgeeked]

Yeah, gonna have to side with @Charlaquin on this one. Being a religious person myself, hearing video games referred to as "folk religions" is...not exactly welcome.

The tribalism in gaming circles is certainly reminiscent.

 

[pemerton]

So PBtA is an example of Forge influence, and directly of Edwards. It certainly seemed the best fit.

Its another branch of RPGs. It clearly influences a lot of designers, but is not part of the mainstream. Traditional gamey games like D&D, versions of D&D, and CoC obviously remain dominant.

I guess a game like Alien could be seen as drawing from the mainstream and a more narrativist approach. Though its my understanding that it really works in the simulationist sense.

I know of Alien but haven't played it. I doubt that there is any serious RPG designer today who isn't familiar with Apocalypse World. Does Alien have playbooks? I had a vague sense that it does.

But 4E is big G game. For better or worse, its all about the G.

In an early 4e interview Rob Heinsoo talked about the influence of "indie" RPGs on 4e's design. I think it's obvious throughout. Probably most obvious in skill challenges - closed-scene conflict resolution - but evident through the whole system.

 

[overgeeked]

FWIW, I have found Justin Alexander's thoughts on scenario design to be really helpful, but I understand that he doesn't like 4e at all, and people here who like 4e in turn do not like him. But, for 4e fans, I would be curious for your thoughts. For example, I find his article on dissociated mechanics to be very clarifying and a useful way of thinking about how mechanics relates to the fiction (and incidentally one that (seems to) fit within the "gameist" critique of 4e)

Dissociated Mechanics – A Brief Primer

Four years ago, in an effort to understand why I found so many of the design decisions in the 4th Edition of Dungeons & Dragons antithetical to what I wanted from a roleplaying game, I wrote an es

thealexandrian.net

There’s a lot I like about 4E. There’s a lot to like about the Alexandrian. It’s not all or nothing. You can like certain parts of a game but not others and you can agree with some if what he says and disagree with him on other things. There’s no reason to dismiss everything he ever says about anything. That’s a rather childish approach. Not saying you’re advocating that at all.

 

[niklinna]

[post error!]

 

[overgeeked]

I don't really see why Justin Alexander describing RPGers as "abused" by their exposure to and participation in certain processes of play is in a wildly different category from Edwards describing them as "brain damaged" via the same sorts of causes. Both imply significant suffering. What am I missing?

Gaming is about making choices. Not being allowed to make choices in a game about making choices...is not great. Over time that leads to players assuming they can’t or don’t get to or aren’t generally allowed to make choices. Which...twists their idea of what an RPG is all about. I wouldn’t go so far as to call it abuse. But railroading is about the worst thing a DM can do.

 

[Cadence]

Gaming is about making choices. Not being allowed to make choices in a game about making choices...is not great. Over time that leads to players assuming they can’t or don’t get to or aren’t generally allowed to make choices. Which...twists their idea of what an RPG is all about. I wouldn’t go so far as to call it abuse. But railroading is about the worst thing a DM can do.

A bit of railroading to keep the game fun or mostly railroading to deny the players any meaningful choices? It seems like there's a difference and a bit of space in between... It's almost like someone started a thread on it at one point recently....

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The tribalism in gaming circles is certainly reminiscent.

But you can say the same about anything--politics, sports teams, competing sports (consider the tribalism of gridiron vs fútbol), brand loyalty, competing fiction franchises (consider the B5 vs DS9 brouhaha), anything with a tribal character. Religions and politics tend to be about deeply-held beliefs regarding the nature of things, people, and the world. Sports, brand loyalty, and fandom tend to be about much more lightly-held preferences and taste. Maybe if we're going to make comparisons referencing tribalism, it is more respectful to reference things that are about preference when talking about games, which are by definition a leisure-time activity, than about things that at least should get to the heart of a person's ethical judgments.

Particularly when religious tribalism is such an incredibly serious issue in the world right at this very moment, so making a comparison to the tribalism of geekdom runs the risk of sounding like one is trivializing religion and its importance to real, living humans, rather than elevating gaming to its level (which I think most people would consider a fairly ridiculous notion.)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

But 4E is big G game. For better or worse, its all about the G.

You may (or may not) be surprised to know that there are folks On This Very Forum who would argue that 4e is a Story Now RPG.

(I believe these are the appropriate incantations for summoning @AbdulAlhazred in all their dread glory.)