D&D General Saving Players From Themselves

[overgeeked]

In discussing how challenging the game is or should be and player behavior, @Mordhau shared a couple of links.

Players optimize the fun out of games.


Reading the article and watching the video brought several things together in a weird kind of "aha!" and "well duh!" moment.

The TL;DR version of both is: players will always default to taking the easiest route possible to yield the best possible results, even if that destroys the intent or fun of the game. If the designers want to encourage certain types of play, it's far better to use a carrot rather than a stick.

Now, one problem is the article and video are talking about video game designers and the obvious corollary would be D&D's designers, the folks at WotC. But this is an RPG run by a DM with a lot of control over what is encouraged and discouraged in play at the table. DMs basically are designers of the games they run so I think this applies as much to the DM if not more so.

A perennial problem with this kind of explicit system of encouragement is someone will inevitably come along and complain that rewarding certain behavior is a not-so-subtle punishment for players who choose not to play in certain ways. I think that complaint is ridiculous enough on its face to be easily dismissed out of hand.

But I also think there's room for some stick. Mostly in the form of banned things like subclasses, feats, races, etc. Some things are just going to break the kind of game the DM wants to run and should be excluded rather than rewarding players who don't pick those things. Like if the DM wants to run an all-human game. Giving human characters an XP boost isn't really sufficient to maintain the cohesion of the game the DM wants to run.

So the point of this thread is to get some more D&D eyes on these articles and to talk about ways DMs can carrot their players into the kinds of behaviors they want to see. The idea is to emphasize rewards over punishments.

One such reward is the old saw of "give XP for gold instead of killing monsters" as a means to encourage exploration and discourage murderhobos is an obvious example. Other types of rewards could be better loot, easier kills, more "intangible rewards" such as boons, titles, land, or anything really.

So some examples of XP rewards would be:

XP for not charging in if you want to promote slower, more cautious play.

XP for charging in if you want to promote faster, more aggressive play.

XP for at least trying to parley with monsters to promote not treating every encounter like a fight.

XP for gold spent instead of gold acquired can encourage a more sword & sorcery feel and/or encourage players to not hoard their wealth.

In my West Marches game, characters get XP for exploring but none for killing monsters.

So what about other DMs? What are your favorite carrots to offer players to encourage the type of play you want to see?

ETA: No, this isn't just about using XP as a reward and giving extra XP to encourage certain behaviors. Any rewards. Any carrots.

 

[Charlaquin]

I agree with you, but good luck convincing anyone who doesn’t already use XP as an incentive to do so.

 

[billd91]

I'm not convinced that XPs are that great an incentive except when PCs are on the cusp of leveling up - then they go looking for trouble. For the most part when playing 1e, sure, we looted everything in sight that was valuable... but we also killed everything in sight because the combat was generally fun to play out. I just don't recall a lot of debating whether or not to fight the monsters vs just stealing their stuff because stealing their stuff was worth more XPs in the end. The reward of going after XPs was kind of a background, abstract thing - we got a rush when the DM calculated the XPs and awarded it, but that was about it.
Maybe we were weird, but I don't think we ever had the same obsession with going after XPs as the Knights of the Dinner Table.

 

[iserith]

My players will do whatever they have to do to earn XP. So depending on the theme or focus of the game, I change up how to earn XP to feed into that. And they get after it. Of the two current campaigns I'm running, I have two different systems. For the swamp hexcrawl, you spend gold pieces in town with a trainer to level up, 1 GP = 1 XP, as a downtime activity. For the street level heroes campaign, you get XP for every villain or supervillain you bring alive to the asylum and for donating gold to the city orphanage (1 GP = 1 XP), leveling up on the spot once you hit your goal.

Inspiration is also on offer for players to play to their characters' personal traits, ideals, bonds, and flaws. This is the method I use. My players regularly hit all of their characteristics every session because having advantage in your back pocket is a useful resource.

 

[Blue]

I see this more in D&D-type games where there are severe penalties for failure, such as character death. Play a game of Paranoia, Tales from the Floating Vagabond or Toon and you get a very different default player behavior. I go all the way to humorous games to show the difference, but there's a lot of RPGs along the spectrum. For example, most superhero games don't have character death on the table except in extremely rare cases. Superhero games are often also not zero-to-hero games like D&D where there is such an urgency to the hunt for the next character advancement.

When the player stakes of failure are high, players will go fro the best possible results for their characters, and will often mistakenly conflate their goals and character's goals. When the player stakes are low, player feel much more feel to engage in actions that bring fun and enjoyment to them and the rest of the table, even at times at the cost to their character.

Now, videogames have an end-game that players are shooting for, so as described in the video that's what most of them prioritize. On the other hand, RPGs do not necessarily have an end-state you are aiming for. Leaving the players freer to explore other goals. I've had great sessions that were mostly comprised of inter-party drama where all of the players had a great time in whatever social situation - because the stakes were not dire, and the players goal was enjoyment of the session, not making progress towards completion.

 

[overgeeked]

I agree with you, but good luck convincing anyone who doesn’t already use XP as an incentive to do so.

So, besides XP, what are your favorite carrots to offer players to encourage the type of play you want to see?

 

[overgeeked]

I'm not convinced that XPs are that great an incentive except when PCs are on the cusp of leveling up - then they go looking for trouble. For the most part when playing 1e, sure, we looted everything in sight that was valuable... but we also killed everything in sight because the combat was generally fun to play out. I just don't recall a lot of debating whether or not to fight the monsters vs just stealing their stuff because stealing their stuff was worth more XPs in the end. The reward of going after XPs was kind of a background, abstract thing - we got a rush when the DM calculated the XPs and awarded it, but that was about it.
Maybe we were weird, but I don't think we ever had the same obsession with going after XPs as the Knights of the Dinner Table.

So, besides XP, what are your favorite carrots to offer players to encourage the type of play you want to see?

 

[hawkeyefan]

I’ve thought about reworking the Traits, Ideals, Bonds, & Flaws into something a bit different and then removing Inspiration as the reward, but instead connecting XP to it.

This would let players select the kinds of things they want to see in play. They’d have some general ones like Traits and Ideals, and then others that might be more class specific. So this way they can get XP for performing their class role, and also for portraying their character.

Other games I’ve enjoyed have a similar system, and although it can’t be ported directly, I think it may be possible to put this kind of system into D&D 5e.

 

[Charlaquin]

So, besides XP, what are your favorite carrots to offer players to encourage the type of play you want to see?

I mean, XP (which can be spent to advance in your class) and GP (which can be spent to advance through acquisition of magic items).

 

[Shiroiken]

Assuming you use XP, which has become an unpopular option of late, it's a good idea to cater the reward to the style of play of the campaign. I like to run a more balanced game, with more exploration and less combat (social stays about the same), so I expanded XP to include exploration encounters, social encounters, plus the occasional quest reward. Originally I halved monster xp, as I wanted to discourage the murder-hobo, but a player convinced me that's not an issue, and I was unfairly punishing them.