D&D 5E On fairies and flying

[HaroldTheHobbit]

If a DM's challenges are constantly thwarted by a flying PC, that says more about the DM's challenges than the flying PC.

So a DM who chooses to not allow lvl 1 flying is just a bad DM who sucks at creating challenges?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Well, I actually do restrict resting to some degree, and I think most DMs do. If you can short rest infinity times per day and long rest every 10 minutes like in some old CRPG, then what's the point of resources at all?

And I can't be the only DM who uses the resource prio as a choice at lower tiers - spell Jump across that chasm and have a slot less for upcoming combat, or take a longer route with a few more combat encounters etc.

Familiar flies across the chasm with a rope. No resources used.

Uses a spell to cross the chasm. "Phew, that was tiering, lets take a rest here, I also have Rope Trick".

Air Genasi levitates across. Since the ability is pretty useless in a fight, no drawback.

Dhampir spider climbs across.

How long before you are banning these things to punish players for solving problems in a way you didn't intend?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So a DM who chooses to not allow lvl 1 flying is just a bad DM who sucks at creating challenges?

It's a DM who punishes players for being smarter than them, or not sticking to the rails.

It doesn't matter if the players have an easy time with some challenges. Good for them, it means they get to the harder stuff faster.

 

[iserith]

Have you played Tomb of Annihilation? If you were to run that as written and your players made an all pixie party....they have broken it from 1st level. The entire adventure path is built around hoardes of undead stalking in a jungle that you are going to be hampered and lost in.

You can certainly adjust the encounters and rules systems presented to challenge an all flying party, but the mere fact that you would have to do so much work to make something usable is a pretty clear indication flying at level 1 as a character is somewhere on the "This option may ruin your game" scale.

I don't run pre-made adventures myself, so I have no issues with flying characters but I could see a new GM running an Adventure Path having a hard time with even a single flying PC.

I played ToA. There are more encounters than just undead. A lot more.

 

[iserith]

So a DM who chooses to not allow lvl 1 flying is just a bad DM who sucks at creating challenges?

Not necessarily. A DM might not white-list particular races for thematic reasons as I've stated.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Have you played Tomb of Annihilation? If you were to run that as written and your players made an all pixie party....they have broken it from 1st level. The entire adventure path is built around hoardes of undead stalking in a jungle that you are going to be hampered and lost in.

Shortbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, range 80/320 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) piercing damage.

-Skeleton, Basic Rules

 

[JiffyPopTart]

-Skeleton, Basic Rules

Ah yes....the bow wielding undead dinosaur setpiece encounters. I always thought that a TRex would have a hard time accessing it's quarrel, but we could overlook that.

But in seriousness....your entire rebuttal to "Flying interferes with the setup of the ToA adventure path" is skeletons have bows. OK, then.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't know about classic, but my players have encountered wyvern riding and winged kobolds, swarms of carnivorous butterfey, sky pirates and living spells whilst travelling by air. And a deadly storm, obviously. There was a red dragon, but as it turned out they decided not to travel by air on that occasion so didn't encounter it. Also avoided - swarms of ravens. In published adventures, there is a potential roc encounter in RotFM if the party try to travel to a certain location by air.

I've also, both as a DM and as a player, seen flying PCs (whether by personal flight or by vehicle) get tracked from the ground by enemies that wouldn't have ever seen them had they been on the ground, had ambushes at camp happen because someone saw the PCs flying and land nearby and figured they'd have good loot, etc. Just a group of goblin hunters with falconers could start a fight, not even necessarily on purpose, with a group of PCs that include flyers.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Ah yes....the bow wielding undead dinosaur setpiece encounters. I always thought that a TRex would have a hard time accessing it's quarrel, but we could overlook that.

But in seriousness....your entire rebuttal to "Flying interferes with the setup of the ToA adventure path" is skeletons have bows. OK, then.

It shows your point - monsters in ToA can't deal with flyers - is complete bollocks. So what if your all pixie party fly past the undead T-Rex? They will just get ripped to shreds by the four armed gargoyles all the sooner.

You know what - any stealthy party can sneak past the undead T-Rex, it's no big deal. I expect you also ban Pass without Trace though. Anything that lets the players bypass your "set pieces". There is a name for games with unavoidable set pieces - railroad.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Then they get hammered by the 30 ft. range monster attacks, like the ankheg's acid spit. And monsters can ready an action too. If they don't keep at least 35 ft. away their is little advantage.

A 30' move swashbuckler can stay 45' away from their target and still swoop/run-by attack

It shows your point - monsters in ToA can't deal with flyers - is complete bollocks. So what if your all pixie party fly past the undead T-Rex? They will just get ripped to shreds by the four armed gargoyles all the sooner.

You know what - any stealthy party can sneak past the undead T-Rex, it's no big deal. I expect you also ban Pass without Trace though. Anything that lets the players bypass your "set pieces". There is a name for games with unavoidable set pieces - railroad.

I'm not sure why you are needing to go down the route of attacking me or my GM skills personally...I'm not arguing about myself having issues running ToA or flying characters. I've already stated quite literally I have no problem with flying 1st level characters earlier in this thread.

What I am saying is that for an inexperienced GM (AKA someone who might buy ToA and run it as-is) an all flying party could be difficult to accommodate. Because of this I think the stance that flying PCs might be overpowered is a fair one for a GM to make.

Concrete examples of how ToA design has issues with an all flying party.

1. The empty map has very discrete rules for what speed a party moves in the jungle, with a game mechanic tied to if they go fast, normal, and slow. Then it goes on to say flying characters move 4 times faster in an 8 hour day than a "normal" speed party. A group could be starting the hex crawl with the PCs moving 4 times faster overland than the adventure expects them to.

2. You have a set piece encounter with the PCs defending a fort from rampaging undead dinosaurs. There are zero danger stakes for them if they can just "jump pack" away from dinosaurs and zombies when the going gets tough.

3. There is an encounter about crossing a dangerous bridge with a golem guarding the other side of the PCs don't do it right. Or they just bypass the whole thing.

4. There is a location with a tricky maze with a prize in the center revealed when the PCs have solved it. Or they just fly by and see what it is without the entire maze portion of the location.

5. There are multiple other locations where height and access from ground level are major problems walking PCs have to solve.