Speculating On Outcomes from How Magic Works

[doctorbadwolf]

So this is like, the magic was always there, not like Shadowrun where there was no magic and then it apocalyptically returns or the novel Warspell: The Merge where magic appears in the modern world but no apocalypse.
So my question here is: back in the days when the Roman emperors were claiming personal divinity and persecuting Christians why did they not establish a monopoly or near monopoly on magic. Use that resource to bolster their claim to divinity and prevent the rise of Christendom or failing that why not between say 1240 and 1500 AD when the Church pretty much had an iron grip on the faith and intellect of Europe did not the Papacy do the same?

Mostly because 90% of humans didn’t know magic was real. Or rather, didn’t know how magic worked or what it could do. There are some setting things involved there, but basically the setting assumes that magic was very rarely known between about 15,000 years ago and sometime in the 90’s-2030’s era.

So, maybe the Roman emperors contributed to that via monopoly and strictly policing magic to only very subtle use, or maybe not and history has been scrubbed repeatedly of direct and accurate reference to magic, leaving only misleading scraps.

Again the big assumption is that magic is real, there are other worlds, and the modern era is the first time in recorded history that it becomes common knowledge. We can posit that there were cultures where magic was less mysterious, like perhaps pre-Christian Ireland (maybe the loss of most of thier magical knowledge is why they went from “never conquered even by the romans” to “conquered by England”.

I would also say that most people need to basically be guided by a magic user through thier first use of magic, in order to start learning how to use it.

My point is that any thing known to threaten those in power will result in those in power trying to control and co-opt that thing. That is why one gets inquisitions and secret police.
A strong case could be made that the Inquisition was antithetical to the Gospels and the message of Christ but we had one anyway because it was necessary to enforce the doctrines needed to underpin Papal political leverage. People do this sort of thing and why did it not happen in your world or more pertinently why did not magic reinforce these tendencies? Given that magic would overawe the superstitious and reinforce the notion that the status quo was back by divine will.

See below

A couple of relevant questions occur to me.
Can anyone do magic (I suspect so but want to be clear)?

More or less. It’s a skill. It has to be…directly shown to you, though. If you live in a place where it’s ubiquitous, you’ll pass that initial hurdle without any effort on anyone’s part, but if not, you need help.

Are there people that are naturally magical (aka sorcerers)? And how numerous are they?

Not very, and not really in a D&D sense. Ie there aren’t really people who don’t have to practice and study to be powerful. There are dangerous shortcuts to power, though.

What happens if one get a spell or piece of magical research wrong? on the scale of: nothing, your brains dribble out your ears, the resulting explosion kills everything for a 1000 meters.

Mostly nothing, but sometimes there are consequences even if you succeed if the working is big enough. No one ever died from casting fireball wrong, though.

All of this will have a profound impact on how magic is viewed in a society.

Agreed.

This is imo a rather flawed way of thinking brought on by our real world experience that magic is not science.
But in most RPG worlds magic and divine intervention is real and thus part of "science". Sure it would not automatically mean that people would apply scientific principles to it, but there would still be innovation, just that some of that innovation would be in magic and rituals. The same way that some people pushed science in the real world some people would push the field of magic and innovate. Same for divine intervention. Just read through how refined ritual offerings were in the Roman Empire where they tried the best to get the gods to accept their offerings to the best of their knowledge.

Collections: Practical Polytheism, Part II: Practice

Part II of a series at the underpinnings of ancient polytheistic (Greek, Roman, Mesopotamian, Norse, etc) religious practice.

acoup.blog

I agree that innovation would just include magic.

It is not about real world science so much as an assumption that magic is rare and dangerous. Which is my default. If the practice of magic requires and complex and esoteric education then magic will be mostly confined to those classes that have the time to learn such things. In my opinion such institutions are conservative in nature and more so if magical mistakes result in environmental catastrophes.
If on the other hand, every blacksmith and carpenter needs a basic magical training then magic is more widespread and harder to police.

Exactly this, yeah. People in the future heat their bath water magically when the water heater fails. Not everyone, but it’s common. Trades eventually include magic principles and techniques.

 

[Maxperson]

So, like, would we see a drop in automation in order to work physical magical properties into technology?

I think people being creative would try and figure out a way in which that thaumaturgical field could be used to build magical devices to automate the creation of more magical devices. You'd see a merging, not a drop.

Would people tend to make their own stuff more, and push back against external pressures to avoid doing so and just buy mass produced stuff?

I think this would be based on social class. The poor wouldn't have the means to learn or acquire expensive things to make their own stuff. They would buy mass produced stuff and just use it longer since time and heirlooms gain power. The wealthier people would make their own to get the power sooner. Since there are generally many more poorer people, mass produced items will still do well.

Would this strongly impact the trend toward urbanization?

I think you'll end up a lot like our own world. A lot of urban areas, but that many people in urban areas will still need a lot of grain and meat raised in rural ones, so there will still be a large rural population.

What am I just not thinking of, in your opinion?

That many magic items will mean that armies and guards are equipped with them, making it harder to get away with being a bad guy. Individuals will have items to allow them to compete with bad guys on the magical front, and at HQ will divination items, truth items, etc. There will also be far fewer monster attacks on towns and cities. You'll need to keep that in mind when coming up with villains and quest ideas.

has anyone built a world like this before?

Not me. My personal preference is far fewer magic items, but have items of greater power.

 

[TwoSix]

I think a lot would depend on whether or not magical item creation is a function purely of dedicated labor and technique, or whether or not reagents and materials are still required and thus become a limiting factor on magic item adoption. If magic isn't limited by rare materials, then essentially Youtube crafting tutorials change the world.

A worldwide thaumatological field essentially acts as a new electricity grid that isn't dependent on connection with existing infrastructure. Depending on how much of water/food/electricity/sewer magic can replace, you'd probably see a general diffusion of population, although you'd still people congregating to benefit from the network effects of shared magic item usage. Plus, I doubt even magic can replace the desire to sample new foods, meet new people, and share in communal experiences, so the benefits of urban living aren't going to go away.

Realistically, the balance of communal living to individual living would depend on magic efficiency. If a magic item that benefits 1000 people is a lot cheaper/easier than 1000 magic items that benefit an individual, you'll see more push to urbanize/congregate. Whereas, say the thaumatological field gets drained via constant usage by large amount of magic; then you'd see a push for people to spread out more.

I'd also expect to see a large religious revival; physical and spiritual magic verify that the world isn't purely materialistic, that the universe fundamentally operates via intent. The existence of spirits and long hidden populations of magical folk prove that any religious mythology could easily have been real even to those who are non-believers.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think people being creative would try and figure out a way in which that thaumaturgical field could be used to build magical devices to automate the creation of more magical devices. You'd see a merging, not a drop.

Interesting. You don’t think that the benefits of making it yourself would factor in?

I think this would be based on social class. The poor wouldn't have the means to learn or acquire expensive things to make their own stuff. They would buy mass produced stuff and just use it longer since time and heirlooms gain power.

But that dynamic by itself would make it harder to maintain the current socio-economic power structure, right? Not to mention the fact that the already existing maker movement which seeks to democratize crafting of useful items and the tools needed to do so would surely accelerate given additional demand and incentive?

The wealthier people would make their own to get the power sooner. Since there are generally many more poorer people, mass produced items will still do well.

I think you'll end up a lot like our own world. A lot of urban areas, but that many people in urban areas will still need a lot of grain and meat raised in rural ones, so there will still be a large rural population.

Perhaps. I think you’d get a lot more people wanting to grow their own food, which is certainly easier in the country. I think you’re underestimating how much would change as a result of a democratizing force like magic that anyone can learn if they study and practice, in a world with decentralized information, but I’m happy to hear why if you think I’m wrong.

That many magic items will mean that armies and guards are equipped with them, making it harder to get away with being a bad guy. Individuals will have items to allow them to compete with bad guys on the magical front, and at HQ will divination items, truth items, etc. There will also be far fewer monster attacks on towns and cities. You'll need to keep that in mind when coming up with villains and quest ideas.

Well, recall that this is a “irl with magic” world, where magic is discovered basically right now, so the changes are mostly to the future. So, will cops have magic weapons? Probably.
Luckily it’s a roughly optimistic setting, so maybe there are no cops or policing has been heavily reformed in the future.

Not me. My personal preference is far fewer magic items, but have items of greater power.

Fair.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think a lot would depend on whether or not magical item creation is a function purely of dedicated labor and technique, or whether or not reagents and materials are still required and thus become a limiting factor on magic item adoption. If magic isn't limited by rare materials, then essentially Youtube crafting tutorials change the world.

Definitely a mix. Rare materials are rarely required for magic, but they do have benefits, especially for big magic.

A worldwide thaumatological field essentially acts as a new electricity grid that isn't dependent on connection with existing infrastructure. Depending on how much of water/food/electricity/sewer magic can replace, you'd probably see a general diffusion of population, although you'd still people congregating to benefit from the network effects of shared magic item usage. Plus, I doubt even magic can replace the desire to sample new foods, meet new people, and share in communal experiences, so the benefits of urban living aren't going to go away.

Of course. I figure what is most likely is that folks who want to live in the country will have an easier time convincing themselves to just do it, and more folks who are on the fence will move out to the country, and fewer people will move from the country to the city, compared to now.

Realistically, the balance of communal living to individual living would depend on magic efficiency. If a magic item that benefits 1000 people is a lot cheaper/easier than 1000 magic items that benefit an individual, you'll see more push to urbanize/congregate. Whereas, say the thaumatological field gets drained via constant usage by large amount of magic; then you'd see a push for people to spread out more.

I think the T-field is pretty constant, with some ley lines and nodes and such. I definitely think that efficiency goes both ways depending on the magic being done. An item with a very individual and personal benefit doesn’t work well when widely shared, whereas stuff like street cleaning magic is stronger the more people interact with it.

I'd also expect to see a large religious revival; physical and spiritual magic verify that the world isn't purely materialistic, that the universe fundamentally operates via intent. The existence of spirits and long hidden populations of magical folk prove that any religious mythology could easily have been real even to those who are non-believers.

Absolutely! The revelation that gods are real is the most transformative aspect of this premise, by far.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

OK, I think I have enough of your magical background to make some useful speculation. One thing I do wonder is magic computable like in Charlie Stross's Laundry Universe. Where magic is essentially a mathematical transformation to Platonic entities that are tied to real world instances. It can be done in one's head but risks magical dementias. Another less, dystopian take on computable magic would be Rick Cook's Wiz Biz books. There the basic units of magic can be put together like Unix command and ultimately form a programmable language. These magic programs need a human to run the script.
So can the human be taken out of the loop, in other words can a magic ritual be run on a computer?

 

[Maxperson]

Interesting. You don’t think that the benefits of making it yourself would factor in?

If you can't afford it, it's better to get the cheaper and less powerful version than nothing at all.

But that dynamic by itself would make it harder to maintain the current socio-economic power structure, right? Not to mention the fact that the already existing maker movement which seeks to democratize crafting of useful items and the tools needed to do so would surely accelerate given additional demand and incentive?

That really depends on how much innovation there is and if magic items break down over time. If there's innovation and suddenly they're coming out with the new Nokia Magicphone XVII or someone came up with a new magical chip clip, then there will be demand from those of less means for those items. If there little innovation, then yes, over time people will simply stop needing to buy items and mass production would die off.

If you go with the latter, you need to consider where in that process your game takes place. If near the beginning, mass production will still be thriving. If near the end, there may be no mass production left at all.

Perhaps. I think you’d get a lot more people wanting to grow their own food, which is certainly easier in the country. I think you’re underestimating how much would change as a result of a democratizing force like magic that anyone can learn if they study and practice, in a world with decentralized information, but I’m happy to hear why if you think I’m wrong.

Modern technology has brought many people into population centers and city sizes have skyrocketed. All those people still need food, though and it doesn't grow in tight city quarters. At least not in enough quantity to come close to feeding the city. Large agricultural areas will be needed to sustain the cities.

Another possibility is that food could be created or multiplied with magic. People will probably want to focus on other things than magical food, clothing, and other basic needs for the items they make, so mass production would still be in demand for basic needs. People are plenty capable of sewing, gardening, etc. here on Earth and would save a lot of money if we did, but we'd rather just buy it. It keeps many businesses in business. I don't see that aspect of humanity changing with the advent of magic.

Well, recall that this is a “irl with magic” world, where magic is discovered basically right now, so the changes are mostly to the future. So, will cops have magic weapons? Probably.
Luckily it’s a roughly optimistic setting, so maybe there are no cops or policing has been heavily reformed in the future.

Whoops! I didn't realize that it was completely modern. I thought you were just heading that direction with the idea. My bad.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The social and economic consequences of magic can be what ever you want. Just adjust the resource cost (in energy, time, material and personal effort) to make magic more or less viable way of doing things that the conventional way.

To use D&D examples, an Unseen Servant can do your household chores, while you argue on social media but where does the energy (in Joules) that are needed to do those jobs? What about a fireball. If the caster has to supply the energy then it might be easier to get a hand grenade than cast fireballs. It might be better to send a familiar to the super market to buy food and have a magic servant cook it than to conjure the food out of thin air and pay the cost to the universe of producing that extra mass.
Does find steed steal some ones horse?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If you can't afford it, it's better to get the cheaper and less powerful version than nothing at all.

Sure. But if magic can help shortcut some of the barriers to entry of making quality goods, and in the US I can tell you from direct experience being very poor, that knowledge and time are the greatest barriers there, not money, then that dynamic has to change somehow, surely.

That really depends on how much innovation there is and if magic items break down over time. If there's innovation and suddenly they're coming out with the new Nokia Magicphone XVII or someone came up with a new magical chip clip, then there will be demand from those of less means for those items. If there little innovation, then yes, over time people will simply stop needing to buy items and mass production would die off.

If you go with the latter, you need to consider where in that process your game takes place. If near the beginning, mass production will still be thriving. If near the end, there may be no mass production left at all.

Modern technology has brought many people into population centers and city sizes have skyrocketed. All those people still need food, though and it doesn't grow in tight city quarters. At least not in enough quantity to come close to feeding the city. Large agricultural areas will be needed to sustain the cities.

Oh absolutely. My wonder is; would more people want to live where they can grow their own food. Assume, for a moment, we are looking at countries with less wealth stratification than in the US. People aren’t essentially trapped where they live. Imagine other aspects of magical development and distribution make it harder to sustain the systems of power that keep wealth increasingly stratified.

Another possibility is that food could be created or multiplied with magic. People will probably want to focus on other things than magical food, clothing, and other basic needs for the items they make, so mass production would still be in demand for basic needs.

Absolutely.

People are plenty capable of sewing, gardening, etc. here on Earth and would save a lot of money if we did, but we'd rather just buy it. It keeps many businesses in business. I don't see that aspect of humanity changing with the advent of magic.

If making your clothes magically repair themselves is a skill you can learn, I think the various movements to make more of our own stuff would gain noticeably more steam, though.

Again, not talking an end to automation, I’m talking about the potential for it the trend toward replaceable cheap goods to reverse, and more stuff be homemade.

But the exact level of change also depends on how much society changes in terms of the work week, wealth distribution, etc.

Whoops! I didn't realize that it was completely modern. I thought you were just heading that direction with the idea. My bad.

Lol its all good. I did mention magic swords, after all.