Level Up (A5E) Epic Levels, or Prestige Classes?

[DeathbyDoughnut]

Hey all, I know we're fresh into this thing, but I'm already thinking ahead. I backed the KS and am super excited to get playing.

I am wondering if there are any plans, or ideas for post-level 20 play. Whether that is something like Epic levels, like previous editions of D&D. Mythic levels from Pathfinder. Or even "Advanced" classes like prestige classes?

Personally, I think something like Prestige classes with 5 or 10 additional levels would be a fun way to run epic levels for post level 20 play.

Either as extension classes, for example the Grandmaster prestige class would be a continuation of the Adept class, where the prerequisite for the Grandmaster prestige class is the Adept's "Grandmaster" feature.

Or hybrid prestige classes that require two level 10 features from two bases classes, and/or features from bases classes that equal out to 20.

An off the top example: Prestige class Dirge Singer, could require the class features: "Sentinel at Death's Door" Grave Cleric level 6, and "Infectious Inspiration" Eloquence Bard level 14.
The Dirge Singer could give access to a handful of thematic rare spells that the cleric and bard both have, as a sort of level up the spell idea. Then give a couple class features like Dirge Song: concentration to play a song of the dead that. And list out a few songs the Dirge Singer can learn that have special effects equitable to the post level 20 nature of the class.
A Dirge of the Dead song might act as an advanced raise dead spell, while Dirge of Eternal Rest song might act as a consecrate spell.
The max level Dirge Singer capstone could be Master Dirge Singer: play and entwine two Dirge Songs you know at once during the same concentration.

Just some ideas I think would be cool to see.

 

[King Brad]

Prestige classes will be a thing in the Zeitgeist book, however, I'm not sure if they will be specifically a post-lvl 20 thing like what you're looking for.

However, given the success of the KS, epic level material could definitely be something that is done by them given that the whole philosophy of A5e basically is "5e, but better". And even if they don't, it sounds like they will have an SRD at some point soon for folks to make their own A5e based material.

 

[Faolyn]

I don't want either. I want Immortals rules.

Honestly, I'm not fond of prestige classes because they force you to plan your character out in a very specific way.

 

[DeathbyDoughnut]

Reprising Immortals is a cool idea too. Really this is a "Wouldn't beyond 20 levels be neat?" post.

I'd hope that prestige classes would be either the end goal, or you look around at level 20 and see what you're qualified for and pick from a few options. Sort of in the spirit of post-level 20 archetypes.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't want either. I want Immortals rules.

Honestly, I'm not fond of prestige classes because they force you to plan your character out in a very specific way.

For my part, if Prestige Classes return, I want them to have either very simple requirements (so that many classes potentially qualify), or very specific but easy requirements (so only a few classes qualify, but you barely need to go deep into them).

I designed a 5e implementation of the Silver Pyromancer. Its requirements are pretty simple: some base stat stuff (Wis 13, and Cha or Int 13), proficiency in both Arcana and Religion (they're religiously-trained arcane spellcasters), and the ability to cast 3rd level spells from an arcane class, excluding Warlocks. (The specific phrasing nixes upcasting as a valid entry, but in principle even that isn't necessary.) IOW, Wizard 5, Bard 5, or Sorcerer 5 would be the usual entry, though EK 13 and AT 13 are also valid options, and I guess so is Artificer 9. Nothing else qualifies. (There are a couple other fluff requirements, but nothing major: sponsorship, completing a fluff ritual, and an oath.)

Basically, if I were in charge of bringing PrCs back, they'd always follow these rules:
0) Don't make a PrC if you can, with equal effectiveness, achieve it some other way. There needs to be an actual benefit. This DOES NOT mean "sacrifice whatever you need to so it doesn't have to be a PrC," but you should always consider other options first.
1) Never larger than 5 levels, and usually no smaller either. Make it punchy and quick, focused on getting to "the good stuff" ASAP. Most games are too short to hit level 15, but a too-short PrC is much harder to balance.
2) An appropriate single-class char should qualify by the time they take their 6th level (so "Wiz 5/PrC1"). Rare exceptions that require 2 feats might be acceptable...but, again, very rare.
3) Any stat prereqs should be easily met at chargen, and should never be particularly onerous--but, ideally, they should be at least a minor cost, e.g. Bard/Sorc/Wiz don't really care about Wisdom.
4) Leverage existing systems, mechanics, etc. A Swordmage PrC should take cues from War Wizardry and EK, a class that emphasizes fire magic should learn from Elemental Affinity/Dragon Sorc, etc.
5) No dead levels: make each level a real temptation. Sacrificing more levels of your original class is always a cost in 5e--there needs to be a commensurate reward, but not one that is unbalanced.
6) If the PrC has at least four levels, the fourth level gives an ASI or equivalent (e.g. Rune Scribe UA with its flexible ASI feature), no exceptions. This means 4th level will be light on other features.
7) All fluff requirements should be easy to meet, assuming player and DM have discussed it in advance. Such things should only exist to make sure the char makes sense, NEVER an RP limit on non-RP power.

 

[Li Shenron]

I wouldn't mind the return of Prestige Classes in the game, as long as it wouldn't mean the return of an endless run of garbage prestige classes.

I think there is definitely room in 5e for something that works as a prestige class, but the purpose of the mechanics should be understood first:

• originally Prestige Classes were supposed to be designed by DMs for their specific campaigns (3.0 DMG had "only" 6 of them because they were supposed to be examples), they were not supposed to be for a-la-carte players-entitled character builds
• a Prestige Class is always a class i.e. a progression of abilities, not a 'pack' of unrelated boosts
• they were always meant to be open to every character, or at least to many
• prerequisites define what ALL members have in common, they aren't meant just as a 'tax' to get the goodies

Does 5e need prestige classes? No.

If you have a good idea for a campaign-specific group membership that should grant characters special knowledge or ability, it is much better to introduce feats, spells, alternate class abilities or one-time "boons", that characters joining the membership will either get for free or be able choose instead of another feat/spell/etc they would get at next level.

But if the idea you have clearly represents a progression that should be available to all classes, then instead of splitting it up into multiple feats (which might take too many levels to gain) you can consider representing it as a set of class levels. The problem is how those class levels detract from your normal progression. If it starts looking like you have to design a complicated mechanics so that it is compatible with all classes, I'd scrap it all and forget about it, it's just not worth the effort.

Basically, if I were in charge of bringing PrCs back, they'd always follow these rules:
0) Don't make a PrC if you can, with equal effectiveness, achieve it some other way. There needs to be an actual benefit. This DOES NOT mean "sacrifice whatever you need to so it doesn't have to be a PrC," but you should always consider other options first.
1) Never larger than 5 levels, and usually no smaller either. Make it punchy and quick, focused on getting to "the good stuff" ASAP. Most games are too short to hit level 15, but a too-short PrC is much harder to balance.
2) An appropriate single-class char should qualify by the time they take their 6th level (so "Wiz 5/PrC1"). Rare exceptions that require 2 feats might be acceptable...but, again, very rare.
3) Any stat prereqs should be easily met at chargen, and should never be particularly onerous--but, ideally, they should be at least a minor cost, e.g. Bard/Sorc/Wiz don't really care about Wisdom.
4) Leverage existing systems, mechanics, etc. A Swordmage PrC should take cues from War Wizardry and EK, a class that emphasizes fire magic should learn from Elemental Affinity/Dragon Sorc, etc.
5) No dead levels: make each level a real temptation. Sacrificing more levels of your original class is always a cost in 5e--there needs to be a commensurate reward, but not one that is unbalanced.
6) If the PrC has at least four levels, the fourth level gives an ASI or equivalent (e.g. Rune Scribe UA with its flexible ASI feature), no exceptions. This means 4th level will be light on other features.
7) All fluff requirements should be easy to meet, assuming player and DM have discussed it in advance. Such things should only exist to make sure the char makes sense, NEVER an RP limit on non-RP power.

That's a good set of guidelines.

 

[This Effin’ GM]

I feel like the best way to do prestige classes or even organizations would be to just provide options for a specific class (classes) that are only accessible by members of that org or whatever.

Honestly I felt O5e missed out on a real opportunity by not providing alternate options for subclasses and floating it as a PrC or Organizational benefit. Like, take the Infiltration Expertise ability of the rogua assassin at level 9. Maybe a Zhentarim assassin would be granted the ability to swap out that ability for something else of equivalent power.

 

[This Effin’ GM]

I feel like the best way to do prestige classes or even organizations would be to just provide options for a specific class (classes) that are only accessible by members of that org or whatever.

Honestly I felt O5e missed out on a real opportunity by not providing alternate options for subclasses and floating it as a PrC or Organizational benefit. Like, take the Infiltration Expertise ability of the rogua assassin at level 9. Maybe a Zhentarim assassin would be granted the ability to swap out that ability for something else of equivalent power.

That stated, I think this is where Level Up supplements will be able to shine for character options.

 

[Horwath]

Prestige classes should be feats.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't want either. I want Immortals rules.

Honestly, I'm not fond of prestige classes because they force you to plan your character out in a very specific way.

Yes and no. During 3e when I made a character, sometimes my concept would be as simple as "a wandering elven fighter who was banished from his homeland." Other times it would be much more specific. When I played the more general concepts, I would simply look periodically at prestige classes to see if any fit both the concept and what had happened to him during gameplay and see if I qualified for one(or was very close to it). For the more specific concepts, planning out his path to the prestige class that fit my vision was very important. I wasn't forced to plan, though. It was optional based on my vision of the PC.