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Level Up (A5E) Feats, Feats, & More Feats!

dave2008

Legend
Honestly I think this is pretty ugly. I'm still trying to decide to back or not the kickstarter but this feat news is kinda driving me away.

Just curious, what is the feat news that is driving you away? This is just the 5e feat concept with more options and flexibility (including the addition of knacks), so I don't really see what you deem as "ugly." Do you care to clarify?
 

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Sansang

Villager
Just curious, what is the feat news that is driving you away? This is just the 5e feat concept with more options and flexibility (including the addition of knacks), so I don't really see what you deem as "ugly." Do you care to clarify?
Well, I have trouble understanding why the bladechanter must be "Fighter / Wizard" and not "Fighter / Sorcerer" or "Rogue / Bard" (Even though I don't know if Bards will be full casters in LevelUp). Nothing in this feats tree remind me of a wizard or a fighter, so to me it's quite an arbitrary decision and limitation. On top of that, it's a feat tree, which is a dangerous path to tax feats. As far as I can remember 5e feats have no requirements other than race (which I find iffy already) or being or not a spellcaster in general (which i find reasonable).

What if the remaining 90 feats have other "arbitrary" limitations like class requirements, or stats requirements, and so on? What if there are more feat trees and suddendly we are back to pathfinder/3.5 with the dodge feat tree?
 

Horwath

Legend
Just curious, what is the feat news that is driving you away? This is just the 5e feat concept with more options and flexibility (including the addition of knacks), so I don't really see what you deem as "ugly." Do you care to clarify?
class exclusive feats are bad idea.

Maybe if they improve specific class feature that it is unique to that class.
I.E:
improved sneak attack; requires sneak attack +2d6,
+1 any ability, improve sneak attack by +1d6.
I am not telling that this is a good feat or interesting feat, it's just an example of a feat being exclusive to rogues.

there is no reason that blade chanter has to be limited to fighter/wizard combo.

Pre-requirements can be; fighting style(two weapon fighting), arcane caster level 3+,
 

dave2008

Legend
Well, I have trouble understanding why the bladechanter must be "Fighter / Wizard" and not "Fighter / Sorcerer" or "Rogue / Bard" (Even though I don't know if Bards will be full casters in LevelUp). Nothing in this feats tree remind me of a wizard or a fighter, so to me it's quite an arbitrary decision and limitation. On top of that, it's a feat tree, which is a dangerous path to tax feats. As far as I can remember 5e feats have no requirements other than race (which I find iffy already) or being or not a spellcaster in general (which i find reasonable).

What if the remaining 90 feats have other "arbitrary" limitations like class requirements, or stats requirements, and so on? What if there are more feat trees and suddendly we are back to pathfinder/3.5 with the dodge feat tree?
Only the new synergy feats have class limitations, it is explained right there in the OP. There are 90 feats total. 42 are updated 5e feats (no prerequisites) and 48 are new. Of those new ones, 24 are new synergy feats (like the example shown) and 24 or general feats with no perquisites.
 

Damn, was really hoping Level Up would sidestep the "Want to take a Feat, huh? Well how well did you roll at CharGen for starting stats?" problem. Leads me to couple questions that aren't exactly Feat related, but are relevant to the opportunity cost of taking Feats.

First, did Point Buy/Standard Array get bumped up to not be worse than average compared to rolling? If not I'm worried that more appealing Feats will lead to more rolling for stats, which results in either party members at fundamentally different levels of power throughout the campaign or "suspiciously" good rolled stats.

Second, speaking of starting stats, what was the assumption of party stats when developing the (fantastically thorough) Monster Math? Did it assume the PB/SA levels? If based on that, combined with reliably obtainable magic weapons, Feats will be a lot more appealing instead of feeling like shinies to distract you from that sweet sweet +5 Ability Modifier you should've rolled better for at the start of the campaign.

Concern about the o5e skeleton aside, Synergy Feats are cool as hell and I'm really looking forward to seeing that Untamed one :D
I think for compatibility issues the choice between a feat and ASI was never going to be taken away (i.e. you get either ASI or feat)

That said, while many feats in o5e are absolutely terrible, many allow for interesting builds/characters that cannot be done in any other way (sentinel+polearm master, for example). The +5 bonus may or may not be better mechanically, but surely feels boring in comparison: the character cannot do anything special or new. Besides: rolling for stats for me is just a vestige of old, a tradition that should be forgotten, but I understand it's a personal choice.

Regarding the monster math, I'm sure they had all the time and means to do it properly, since they are designing the game from scratch. They should be answering this questions, but I'm pretty confident they assumed a reasonably optimized point buy/standard array, with ASI at the appropriate level and time, and maybe a few "expected" magic items (that are probably not necessary and can de facto cover up an ASI)
 

dave2008

Legend
class exclusive feats are bad idea.
I disagree, but of course I didn't reply to your comment. I mean PF2 is built completely on the idea of everything (almost) is a class feat and it works great. Personally I don't care for multiclass feats because we don't use multiclassing, so they are waste for us. But that doesn't make them a bad idea.
Maybe if they improve specific class feature that it is unique to that class.
I.E:
improved sneak attack; requires sneak attack +2d6,
+1 any ability, improve sneak attack by +1d6.
I am not telling that this is a good feat or interesting feat, it's just an example of a feat being exclusive to rogues.

there is no reason that blade chanter has to be limited to fighter/wizard combo.

Pre-requirements can be; fighting style(two weapon fighting), arcane caster level 3+,
I don't know enough about feat design to say if these are equivalent or not, but I again I don't really care about multiclass feats as we will not use them. I would say your idea seems to be a good one, so why don't you just do it your way? This is a book of houerules, you should feel free to make tweaks that you like.
 

Sansang

Villager
Only the new synergy feats have class limitations, it is explained right there in the OP. There are 90 feats total. 42 are updated 5e feats (no prerequisites) and 48 are new. Of those new ones, 24 are new synergy feats (like the example shown) and 24 or general feats with no perquisites.
Written in AE5 Way though, and at the moment they gave us an example of the way they write feats that I don't really love, like at all. Honestly I would have preferred to see how they rewrote 5E bad feats like linguist and such, probably I would have loved that and never had a second though about it, but at the moment their presentation about feats is: Class requirements and feat trees.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Written in AE5 Way though, and at the moment they gave us an example of the way they write feats that I don't really love, like at all. Honestly I would have preferred to see how they rewrote 5E bad feats like linguist and such, probably I would have loved that and never had a second though about it, but at the moment their presentation about feats is: Class requirements and feat trees.
Only Synergy feats have class prequisites. They are designed specifically for multiclass characters.
 

Honestly I think this is pretty ugly. I'm still trying to decide to back or not the kickstarter but this feat news is kinda driving me away. As Horwarth pointed out the class limitation for the sinergy feats seems to be a no-brainer 1st house rule, but to me it screams arbitrary limitations and it does look way too much like the old tax feats. Obviously the easiest solution would be to just ignore them, but I just can't ignore the idea that the remaining 90 feats has been designed in the same way. (Sorry if my first post is so negative, I also edited it because I posted only a letter by mistake.)
I see your point: I like feats that do not require specific class limitations (or features), but once you do that the feat itself is necessarily more generic. If you have a feat that requires class features, the feat can build upon those features and become more interesting (and focused).

The problem, if you want, is that the pair of feats explained here in fact do not build up on any specific class features, so the restriction feels artificial and without a specific purpose (or could be better reframed as Dual Wielding fighting style and ability to cast 2nd level spells). The flip side of the coin is that removing those arbitrary restriction is a very easy day 1 house rule.
 

Horwath

Legend
Only Synergy feats have class prequisites. They are designed specifically for multiclass characters.
ok.
And Bladechanter is a good feat. But it is generic: I'm a caster that wants to be better while dual wielding.

But what does that feat has to do with fighter/wizard combo? It can be any caster?
If a feat is class specific it should be connected with some feature that is specific to that class.
I.E: when you spend all your exertion points, you can use your arcane recovery. Or similar.
Something that ties one specific feature from one class to one specific feature of another class.
 

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