System matters and free kriegsspiel

[Fenris-77]

There's a good series of blog articles about FKR over on Darkworm Colt. Obviously not exhaustive, but I found them helpful in figuring out what the heck we're talking about here.

Edit: Darkworm Colt is Norbert Matausch, who started the FKR movement with another fellow. Anyway...

 

[S'mon]

what happens is I decide on a course of action and then filter it through my character.

That's not what I do. I told you what I do. But you'll refuse to believe me, probably tell me I'm deluded or lying. sigh

 

[S'mon]

But that's just it. Not to reiterate what @overgeeked just said, but you're not asking the right question. And trust me, I get it. I really do- earlier in the thread I explained how it took me a year (really, I'm not exaggerating) to run my first diceless game eons ago because I just didn't get it. I couldn't wrap my head around it.

I've often had the experience of 'not getting' a game or a play style. I assume the fault is with me, not with those who do enjoy that game or play style.

 

[S'mon]

If a group is all on board for playing original series Star Trek, and are invested fans, isn't there still going to be questions that need to be nailed down in a rules way?

Will my Vulcan nerve pinch automatically work? What about just hitting someone from behind? Will that cause the target to instantly lose consciousness? Can I talk computers into self destruction with a string of logic or illogic? Can I wriggle out of the prime directive rules by stating that the culture was stagnant? How close are we following the tv tropes?

These questions will probably need a rules framework

You're not ok with "Play and find out"?

 

[S'mon]

In a way, it feels like FKR is basically a complete surrender to the idea of "illusionism as principled play."

In Illusionist play the player choices have no influence on the outcomes, which are pre-determined. I think you're saying you suspect your GM is doing this?

 

[Ovinomancer]

That's not what I do. I told you what I do. But you'll refuse to believe me, probably tell me I'm deluded or lying. sigh

Okay. Here's a check, though -- ask someone else to play the character. Will the choices they make be the same as yours?

 

[Baba]

This pattern. I know it.

The Harbinger of the New Wine will say: Look! This is the New Wine! You may have tasted wine before, but never like this - this is a taste and a smell that was just recently born, and it is wondrous and fresh and worthy of admiration! There’s nothing wrong with that older, slightly unimaginative wine that you have been drinking, but THIS never-before-seen wine is RADIANT! And also new.

Then the Warden who protects the world from too much enthusiasm will say: This is not new. I did this in 1978, or at the very least I know of someone who talked about doing it back then. And it was the very same thing, or close to it, and furthermore, it is not so very interesting. There are more interesting things that I have been doing for many years now. In fact, that thing that you are describing: Is it really a proper thing at all? It doesn’t fit very well in this box that I have made where things are supposed to fit.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I've often had the experience of 'not getting' a game or a play style. I assume the fault is with me, not with those who do enjoy that game or play style.

Sure, which is why we're asking questions. "Play the world, not the rules" or "fiction" or "fun" are not useful answers though.

 

[Ovinomancer]

There's a good series of blog articles about FKR over on Darkworm Colt. Obviously not exhaustive, but I found them helpful in figuring out what the heck we're talking about here.

Edit: Darkworm Colt is Norbert Matausch, who started the FKR movement with another fellow. Anyway...

I read those. My takeaway is that FKR (according to that blog) is about emulating either a general or period piece. Resolution is primarily GM's conception of the situation, with a fallback to a simple, random resolution system, with secret GM modifiers to the rolls as needed. There's a different system presented on that blog that appears to be the GM assigning a die type (d4 to d20) to the player based on their action and how good they are at it (not clear if this is static based on character sheet entries or if it's situational or both) and the assigning a die type to the challenge, highest roll wins. This is also a bit random, although, again, I'm unclear if player action declaration is a feed-in to this so that skillful declaration or manipulation of the fiction alters the odds. The presentation of the system doesn't seem to indicate this, but I might have missed something.

All-in-all, it feels like a movement that's dismissive of actual game design and play principles and is trying to claim freeform RP and pair it with a random resolution system for some things. I'm not even really clear on when the random resolution system is supposed to be engaged -- it appears to be whenever the GM wants to use it?

 

[Arilyn]

You're not ok with "Play and find out"?

I'm ok with it, but it's nice to know certain things. As a Vulcan I'd know how reliable my nerve pinch is, for example. Sure, in the show it just works but the GM might feel that a roll is required. As a player these things are good to know, and not for some gamey reason, but for a sense of how my world works.

I'd have trouble getting into the spirit of the game if I'm not sure, as a player, what that means. Playing TOS is a great starting point but there'd definitely be nuances between GMs. Is it a more realistic version of TOS, or are we going all in with the old show? The "rules" in this case are not putting constraints on me, but freeing me from second guessing.

This could definitely be settled before play, but then wouldn't rules start creeping in? We'd decide that the nerve pinch just works, or that there'd a roll involved. And then the rules would be kept track of for consistency's sake, and then we'd end up with a rules light game. And this might be perfectly fine. But there'd still be rules players are adopting and understanding, and no longer just playing the world.

Some seem to be saying Cthulhu Dark is a FKR, but when I play it, I have some structure informing me how the world works. If I had a Star Trek version I'd know the tropes of that game version and know about my nerve pinch or odds of causing sentient computers to self destruct. If Cthulhu Dark is FKR then I guess I have no complaints.