D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

[Chaosmancer]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're trying to claim that those non-dex feats increase speed, then the dex guy can have those non-dex feats as well. All else being equal(both having same feats) the guy with the highest dex is faster than the SLOWER guy.

Non-Dex feat increases speed. That's the end of the point. But, okay, let's make this REALLY fair. 20 dex for both, 20 int for both, Alert feat for both. The guy without Tactical Insight is rolling a +10 and the guy with it is rolling a +15. Intelligence makes you faster, and what's good for the goose, so I should be able to have 20 dex for both.

Two more arguments that I never made. That said, I will note that for the first argument popularity is in fact a good enough reason in a game where popularity = $$$. WotC is in the business to make $$$.

And giving more elves that gave more ASIs = $$$$ because being able to put elves in different roles was more profitable.

Show me one race other than elves that got bonuses in all 6 stats with 6 subraces in a single edition.

I'm in the middle of a live write after a hard day, but I'll try and remember to do some research later. Off the top of my head though, I'd say PLanetouched are a strong contender. They have multiple sub-races (Genasi, Tielfing, Aasmiar, ect) and they have a variety of ASIs.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Balance is useful, but overrated imo. Some choices are just better than others, and forcing them not to be snaps my reality suspenders hard.

The issue with that is though, once one option is known to be better, there is no reason to take the worse option. And any arguments to flavor just make people feel like they are stupid for wanting that flavor, and when they express that disconnect that their flavor is harmed by the mechanical inferiority of their choice, then they get berated for being a minmaxxed powergamer who cares nothing for story.

Which is double insulting since if they didn't care about story... they'd just take the superior option anyways.

 

[Scribe]

The issue with that is though, once one option is known to be better, there is no reason to take the worse option.

Story. Playing a character you thought up, despite any minor mechanical setbacks.

Easy.

 

[BookTenTiger]

I dont think I am ignoring what you are saying.

You want rules which describe what a race is. You dont want what boils down to a +1, to be part of what what defines a race. I want both.

I'm not saying it should be the ONLY thing. In fact I've said multiple times, it should be in addition to, other things.

1. Racial ASI Stats
2. Racial Rules
3. Paragon Rules
4. Racial Feats.

Do it all!

I agree on 2 - 4, and USED to agree on 1. Once Tasha's came out, and I started experimenting with character ideas, I changed my mind.

Here's why:

Though WotC no longer used ability score penalties for nonhuman races, the rules have an "invisible penalty" through ASIs. When I am creating a wizard, if I choose a race without an improvement to Intelligence, I am essentially choosing a -1 or a -2 to Intelligence, comparatively. It's almost like those races with Intelligence bonuses are the default for wizards, and every other race has a penalty.

One could argue that this is just a price of playing nontraditional wizards, and that's a reasonable argument.

But once I can choose any race without that invisible Intelligence penalty, the variety of character ideas really just bloomed! I felt like I could play a lot more different, interesting characters, not just ones that had a bonus to Intelligence.

This is why I think ASIs should be granted by character class... It makes a lot more sense that my wizard would gain a higher intelligence through training than their race.

 

[Maxperson]

Non-Dex feat increases speed. That's the end of the point. But, okay, let's make this REALLY fair. 20 dex for both, 20 int for both, Alert feat for both. The guy without Tactical Insight is rolling a +10 and the guy with it is rolling a +15. Intelligence makes you faster, and what's good for the goose, so I should be able to have 20 dex for both.

You've already moved the goalposts once by including int. Now you want to move it again by increasing dex to 20 in a comparison of low dex vs high dex? No.

And giving more elves that gave more ASIs = $$$$ because being able to put elves in different roles was more profitable.

They add them because of popularity, not ASI's. If it were ASI's and not popularity, then all races would have 6 subraces.

I'm in the middle of a live write after a hard day, but I'll try and remember to do some research later. Off the top of my head though, I'd say PLanetouched are a strong contender. They have multiple sub-races (Genasi, Tielfing, Aasmiar, ect) and they have a variety of ASIs.

Uh uh. Planetouched are not a race. Genasi are a race. Aasimar are a race. Tiefling are a race. Planetouched are a category like humanoid or giant.

 

[Scribe]

I agree on 2 - 4, and USED to agree on 1. Once Tasha's came out, and I started experimenting with character ideas, I changed my mind.

Here's why:

Though WotC no longer used ability score penalties for nonhuman races, the rules have an "invisible penalty" through ASIs. When I am creating a wizard, if I choose a race without an improvement to Intelligence, I am essentially choosing a -1 or a -2 to Intelligence, comparatively. It's almost like those races with Intelligence bonuses are the default for wizards, and every other race has a penalty.

One could argue that this is just a price of playing nontraditional wizards, and that's a reasonable argument.

But once I can choose any race without that invisible Intelligence penalty, the variety of character ideas really just bloomed! I felt like I could play a lot more different, interesting characters, not just ones that had a bonus to Intelligence.

This is why I think ASIs should be granted by character class... It makes a lot more sense that my wizard would gain a higher intelligence through training than their race.

That's a fine way to view it.

I just said well what rules now have the best synergy? Oh, OK then.

It simply removes a dial, in a game system that doesn't have many to turn as it was written anyway.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Take 10000 randomized Standard Arrays.
Apply Goliath ASI to 5000.
Apply Halfling ASI to 5000.

Average the Str of both data sets.

Which is stronger?

Goliath, and that is what racial ASI provides, a mechanical way to reflect the averages of different species.

And the moment you play 10,000 characters, that matters. I've been playing 5e since it came out... if I count the 30+ pre-gens I made, I might have hit 50 characters in seven years. And they are pretty diverse in terms of race, so it really doesn't seem like I've played 5,000 of a single race.

And since NPCs don't count (because the DM just makes them what they need to be) I don't think it really matters to represent something on the 10,000 character's scale.

 

[Scribe]

And the moment you play 10,000 characters, that matters. I've been playing 5e since it came out... if I count the 30+ pre-gens I made, I might have hit 50 characters in seven years. And they are pretty diverse in terms of race, so it really doesn't seem like I've played 5,000 of a single race.

And since NPCs don't count (because the DM just makes them what they need to be) I don't think it really matters to represent something on the 10,000 character's scale.

Nope, it matters to me right now.

I'm glad it doesnt matter to you, so it changes nothing.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Story. Playing a character you thought up, despite any minor mechanical setbacks.

Easy.

So, you simply ignored my very next sentence, which addresses why this exact argument is problematic. I'll post it again. I'd appreciate if you actually read the entire post.

"And any arguments to flavor [ie Story] just make people feel like they are stupid for wanting that flavor [ie story] (since it is mechanically inferior), and when they express that disconnect that their flavor is harmed by the mechanical inferiority of their choice, then they get berated for being a minmaxxed powergamer who cares nothing for story.

Which is double insulting since if they didn't care about story... they'd just take the superior option anyways."

 

[Chaosmancer]

You've already moved the goalposts once by including int. Now you want to move it again by increasing dex to 20 in a comparison of low dex vs high dex? No.

How is this any different than you moving my example of High dex vs feat to giving both people feats? You felt justified to do that since it would "prove" your point that feats can't make you faster, only dex makes you faster, so why can't I do the same.

Oh, and you are about to say that of course you didn't make the argument that only dex can make you faster, how dare I put words in your mouth and twist your arguments and yadda yadda yadda. But, you DID say that only strength can make your stronger. That having an ability that makes you stronger but no bonus to strength is nonsensical, because you are suddenly strong without being strong. Well, having a feat and an ability that adds int to Initiative makes you fast... without a high dex to make you fast. Fast without being Fast... and it's never once been seen as nonsensical. So, your argument for strength fails when applied to dexterity.

They add them because of popularity, not ASI's. If it were ASI's and not popularity, then all races would have 6 subraces.

Then they could have just added elves that had Dex and Cha or Dex and Int or Dex and Wis, if it had nothing to do with the ASIs why did we have elves and halflings with strength and con bonuses?

Uh uh. Planetouched are not a race. Genasi are a race. Aasimar are a race. Tiefling are a race. Planetouched are a category like humanoid or giant.

I believe they were listed as a race in 3.X, and I thought Planescape listed them as a race. Giants are a race after all, with multiple subraces. What's the difference? I mean, if you look at Giant Lore, all giants are just subraces of "Giant". Same with dragons. True Dragons are a race with multiple subraces.

Other than "nuh-uh" do you have a reason that planetouched can't be considered a race like Giants or True Dragons?