Some Stats from the Wired Article

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I looked up some numbers to see how things compared and the article said they offered pay of about $35k/year within the past 3 years. Three years ago, Seattle had a minimum wage of about $11.50/hour, or about $23k/year if getting paid for 40 hours/week. This year it has risen to about $14.50/hour, or about $29k/year. That $35k does not look so great when any unskilled job almost starts at that amount. They are actually in neighboring Redmond, so I am not sure if they have the same pay rate as Seattle, or if they use the slightly lower Washington Stage minimum wage. But either way, that region is very expensive.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Or negotiate for better pay and conditions.

What an odd thing to say. Like the world is binary and nothing can ever be changed. Which is patently and obviously not true.

Yes, but you cannot appreciate the impact that billions upon billions of $ of right-wing propaganda has had in poisoning people's minds against Unions in the US...

Truthfully though, in the late 1970's I was hanging out in a large gaming club most of the time. There were a number of industry regulars that used to drift through from time-to-time. I recall running into Lou Zocchi once, very nice guy. He sold me a copy of his Star Trek space combat game, that went with the miniatures he was selling back then. There were all the Martian Metals guys, they'd show up and let us tell them what sort of miniatures were hot for, and then go make them! They would sell them to us and then buy them back at some rate for recycled tin, lol. Some of the guys that worked with Steve Jackson and the Metagaming people would show up and we'd playtest their stuff too. What I learned was that there was NO money AT ALL in the industry. EGG and a few lucky guys more than made a living (Steve Jackson eventually did pretty well I guess, but he was broke like the rest back then). Everyone else was destined to be broke until they would give up and 'get a real job'.

I live down the road from WotC, almost literally, now. The actual game people are not super highly paid, aside from a very few core people, managers, etc. I don't think they pay badly, the couple times I've investigated IT jobs with them, they were pretty competitive, but its still not where you are going to make more than just adequate money. Paizo from all accounts is pure hell, 80 hour weeks and pay rates too low to even live hand to mouth on. I doubt they CAN pay more though. The industry is just too small and not lucrative. Its a hobby, not a career, unless you are one of a very few guys with their name on a D&D book, forget it.

I don't think Paizo people unionizing will actually help, though I think unions are a pretty good idea overall. It isn't a matter of anyone holding out, the boss ain't getting rich! The company will just end up folding if they push hard.

 

[Cadence]

I went to the bar tonight. The waitress told me she just quit her full time job at a law office. She was a clerk (not an attorney) and made $16/hr. She made more waiting tables part time.

I looked up some numbers to see how things compared and the article said they offered pay of about $35k/year within the past 3 years. Three years ago, Seattle had a minimum wage of about $11.50/hour, or about $23k/year if getting paid for 40 hours/week. This year it has risen to about $14.50/hour, or about $29k/year. That $35k does not look so great when any unskilled job almost starts at that amount. They are actually in neighboring Redmond, so I am not sure if they have the same pay rate as Seattle, or if they use the slightly lower Washington Stage minimum wage. But either way, that region is very expensive.

It feels like for many jobs (whether law clerk vs. waitress or game company worker vs. starting somewhere unskilled) a big question beyond hourly pay are things like health care, 401k, sick leave, vacation, and regularity of the hours? Any word on how Paizo was with them?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

"negotiate better pay"....as if the company doesn't have standard pay rates that can barely vary due to legal, HR, and regulatory reasons.....I'm not sure some people posting here have worked for big companies, or tried to negotiate salary.....

Not sure what country you live in, but in the US wages are PRETTY MUCH up to the company. There are minimum wage laws for hourly rate workers, but in most places those rates are FAR below survival rates! In a few specific areas there may be other rules, like livery companies or whatnot. Otherwise, as a business owner, I simply pay what the market demands and my business can support. If I can't pay enough to attract any employees, then I am just SOL. Its pure capitalism with very few limitations, unlike Europe or some other places where there are many labor laws.

I ran FOUR companies in the US, I can tell you, the government has really rather little to say about your business. Paizo, for example, is almost surely unconstrained in what they pay. If people come in to work and do the work at the rate they pay, that's all there is to it. People CAN ask for more money, but they can also be let go. Whatever 'legal, HR, and regulatory reasons' you are trying to invoke, they are largely a figment of the imagination, lol. Large companies of course have policies, but a small company? nope. It is whatever boss man says.

 

[Morrus]

Not sure what country you live in, but in the US wages are PRETTY MUCH up to the company. There are minimum wage laws for hourly rate workers, but in most places those rates are FAR below survival rates! In a few specific areas there may be other rules, like livery companies or whatnot. Otherwise, as a business owner, I simply pay what the market demands and my business can support. If I can't pay enough to attract any employees, then I am just SOL. Its pure capitalism with very few limitations, unlike Europe or some other places where there are many labor laws.

I ran FOUR companies in the US, I can tell you, the government has really rather little to say about your business. Paizo, for example, is almost surely unconstrained in what they pay. If people come in to work and do the work at the rate they pay, that's all there is to it. People CAN ask for more money, but they can also be let go. Whatever 'legal, HR, and regulatory reasons' you are trying to invoke, they are largely a figment of the imagination, lol. Large companies of course have policies, but a small company? nope. It is whatever boss man says.

Please review my previous warning in this thread.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I looked up some numbers to see how things compared and the article said they offered pay of about $35k/year within the past 3 years. Three years ago, Seattle had a minimum wage of about $11.50/hour, or about $23k/year if getting paid for 40 hours/week. This year it has risen to about $14.50/hour, or about $29k/year. That $35k does not look so great when any unskilled job almost starts at that amount. They are actually in neighboring Redmond, so I am not sure if they have the same pay rate as Seattle, or if they use the slightly lower Washington Stage minimum wage. But either way, that region is very expensive.

Redmond is FILLED with all the millionaires that were made from practically every 90's era Microsoft employee. Down where I am, about 35-40 minutes south of there you can rent for about what is stated in the article, and older less desirable houses might be had in the $500k range, if you shop around for a while and drive a good bargain, but many go here for $800k or more (one sold down the street from me for a cool million last week). In Redmond itself, I HIGHLY doubt you will live anywhere near that cheap. I'm sure all these folks are doing some commuting. This is a pretty expensive area to live in, overall, though better than Silicon Valley and such. My assumption would be that most of these people have spouses or something that pull in good money, so making $35k is FEASIBLE, but it is still really rotten.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Please review my previous warning in this thread.

Sorry, I thought the article was quite interesting, especially the part about WotC. They're a pretty successful bunch overall there, but it would be REALLY interesting to know how much of that 986 million is actually D&D (I'm guessing its about 80% M:tG, but who knows. They say D&D is doing well... They are also branching out really strongly into video games and online projects now. Chatted with a couple of their guys a while back, they're maybe finally bringing their IT capability up to par with the 21st Century, which didn't seem to be really the case back in the 4e days...

 

[aramis erak]

Not sure what country you live in, but in the US wages are PRETTY MUCH up to the company. There are minimum wage laws for hourly rate workers, but in most places those rates are FAR below survival rates! In a few specific areas there may be other rules, like livery companies or whatnot. Otherwise, as a business owner, I simply pay what the market demands and my business can support. If I can't pay enough to attract any employees, then I am just SOL. Its pure capitalism with very few limitations, unlike Europe or some other places where there are many labor laws.

Redmond has $15.00 hour min wage. At 50×40, that's $30K/year...
Housing, in the form of a 2 BR apt, runs about $24k; 1 BR, $20,800... per year.
So... not a living wage at minimum... but it leaves enough to eat, especially if one has a roommate at minimum+; as then it's only 2/5 of income on housing. which leaves a reasonable food, clothing, and utilities budget. TIght, but doable.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Redmond has $15.00 hour min wage. At 50×40, that's $30K/year...
Housing, in the form of a 2 BR apt, runs about $24k; 1 BR, $20,800... per year.
So... not a living wage at minimum... but it leaves enough to eat, especially if one has a roommate at minimum+; as then it's only 2/5 of income on housing. which leaves a reasonable food, clothing, and utilities budget. TIght, but doable.

Sounds about right. I mean, certainly a household with 2 people in it earning $15/hr can (barely) survive there, but imagine being someone talented enough, and simply EMPLOYABLE ENOUGH (IE able to report every day for work, accomplish the tasks set out reliably, etc.) and with good enough writing skills to write quality stuff. Now imagine your future is 80 hr/wk of this work for just exactly barely enough to eek out a living until the say some idiot without insurance smacks into your car and sends you to the ER and totals it, or whatever other bolt from Zeus happens to fall on your life. I lived it! Not in the gaming field, but believe me, I lived it, for years. Its not something I recommend by comparison with taking a nice, boring office job, and gaming on the side, lol.

I mean, I envy people that can make a decent living working in gaming, wow, that's awesome. I am pretty definitely sure that would not be my fate! I can see how smaller shops, even the mid-sized ones like Paizo, are struggling to survive. They always do, and its not like they CAN pay more. It was simply ever so, even back in the heyday of TSR.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Sounds about right. I mean, certainly a household with 2 people in it earning $15/hr can (barely) survive there, but imagine being someone talented enough, and simply EMPLOYABLE ENOUGH (IE able to report every day for work, accomplish the tasks set out reliably, etc.) and with good enough writing skills to write quality stuff. Now imagine your future is 80 hr/wk of this work for just exactly barely enough to eek out a living until the say some idiot without insurance smacks into your car and sends you to the ER and totals it, or whatever other bolt from Zeus happens to fall on your life. I lived it! Not in the gaming field, but believe me, I lived it, for years. Its not something I recommend by comparison with taking a nice, boring office job, and gaming on the side, lol.

I mean, I envy people that can make a decent living working in gaming, wow, that's awesome. I am pretty definitely sure that would not be my fate! I can see how smaller shops, even the mid-sized ones like Paizo, are struggling to survive. They always do, and its not like they CAN pay more. It was simply ever so, even back in the heyday of TSR.

While there are definitely parts of this country where $35k/year is almost nothing for living expenses, there are also large parts of the country where you could live comfortably, and in this day of remote work, any job that does not require the employee to live where Paizo or WotC are located, is a good job at that pay rate. So the real problem is Paizo saying "here is $35k, but you have to live here for these specific jobs."