Pathfinder 2E Paizo drops use of the word phylactery

[Warpiglet-7]

If you're not going to engage with the culture behind the word, what reason are you using it for other than exoticism? You don't need to be offended to know when something is lazy and probably shouldn't be done.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an affirmative defense as to why it needs to remain "phylactery" that doesn't involve "It's always been like this" or a slippery slope argument.

My point is that this way lies madness. Arbitrary and self congratulatory madness.

it borrows features but is not meant to hold holy Jewish writings of course but language makes things interesting. Gygax made better readers (not writers!) of many of us.

I object to the notion that we cannot borrow golems and things from different cultures to incorporate in a game.

if we cannot draw from our past to cobble together new combinations of things, we are limiting ourselves. For what purpose?

it’s how language and culture evolve and change over time.

it’s like burning records because rock n roll drew from and changed the blues

 

[Campbell]

I don't understand the commentary that's approaching this from the perspective of Paizo bowing to public pressure. That's not what this is. This is Paizo making a creative decision about the type of content they will produce. I think open playtests have twisted our perspectives somewhat. Paizo is a company staffed with creatives who make creative decisions. That process should be respected more in my opinion.

 

[BookTenTiger]

My point is that this way lies madness. Arbitrary and self congratulatory madness.

it borrows features but is not meant to hold holy Jewish writings of course but language makes things interesting. Gygax made better readers (not writers!) of many of us.

I object to the notion that we cannot borrow golems and things from different cultures to incorporate in a game.

if we cannot draw from our past to cobble together new combinations of things, we are limiting ourselves. For what purpose?

it’s how language and culture evolve and change over time.

it’s like burning records because rock n roll drew from and changed the blues

I notice you are using "we" as if Paizo is taking away your ability to do something, or as if this is an issue of us vs. them.

Is anyone actually stopping you from putting golems in the game? Is Paizo stopping you from calling a lich's magic gem a phylactery?

I find it difficult to believe this effort is actually stopping anyone from drawing from the past. But isn't it good to draw from the past... respectfully?

 

[J.Quondam]

if you cannot separate your faith and the game how is the game something you are into? Someone will say yeah, but this culture.

So I might be completely off-base here, but...
I don't think it's about gamers unable to separate their faith from the game. Rather the bigger issue is that these gamers are concerned that some part of their faith (or culture or identity) is being represented in a harmful way in the eyes of the rest of the gaming community.

As for why these gamers on this issue at this time? On that, I dont know, but maybe just note that they comprise a group that has historically gone largely unheard: perhaps no one paid attention, or they lacked a platform, or they never spoke up? Whatever the reason, the industry, tech, and social awareness now is at a place where it's advantageous for them to make a little noise and maybe get this thing spotlighted.

Tbh, I doubt it's huge thing in the grand scheme of things. But just a little movement on something like this might make that subset of gamers feel a little more welcome-- and it would do that with virtually no hardship on anyone else's part. So there's really no reason not to.

I really don't think any of this leads down a slippery slope, any more than toning down chainmail bikinis has in the past. It's just an evolution in the presentation of the game to the people playing it.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I notice you are using "we" as if Paizo is taking away your ability to do something, or as if this is an issue of us vs. them.

Is anyone actually stopping you from putting golems in the game? Is Paizo stopping you from calling a lich's magic gem a phylactery?

I find it difficult to believe this effort is actually stopping anyone from drawing from the past. But isn't it good to draw from the past... respectfully?

I can make any game I want. You are right. I can also scoff at inconsistent and odd selective “respect.” Similarly, I can point out the oddness of the decision making process and it’s logical conclusions.

specifically if using anything similar in form and function to current religious regalia is unacceptable there is a lot we need to excise. What keeps us from that?

would the game be as fun without some cultural references to things we know?

 

[Justice and Rule]

My point is that this way lies madness. Arbitrary and self congratulatory madness.

it borrows features but is not meant to hold holy Jewish writings of course but language makes things interesting. Gygax made better readers (not writers!) of many of us.

If you desire exotic words, then make them up. If you take them from somewhere else, then it feels like it's totally right to critique you on the subject.

I object to the notion that we cannot borrow golems and things from different cultures to incorporate in a game.

No one said you couldn't, but rather you should think about when you do rather than flippantly adding something in because it sounds cool. Because really, that's what "phylactery" is.

if we cannot draw from our past to cobble together new combinations of things, we are limiting ourselves. For what purpose?

Is it your past? Or someone else's? Because a lot of this wasn't Gygax's past.

it’s how language and culture evolve and change over time.

This is not really a defense of anything as much a defense of everything.

it’s like burning records because rock n roll drew from and changed the blues

No one's burning anything. No one's saying to stop playing the game. They are making a proactive change to an item name because they want to lose the fake exoticism.

 

[Eric V]

I can make any game I want. You are right. I can also scoff at inconsistent and odd selective “respect.” Similarly, I can point out the oddness of the decision making process and it’s logical conclusions.

specifically if using anything similar in form and function to current religious regalia is unacceptable there is a lot we need to excise. What keeps us from that?

would the game be as fun without some cultural references to things we know?

A lot? What else are you thinking of?

As well, are these things used in the game in an exclusively evil context like phylacteries for liches?

 

[Warpiglet-7]

If you desire exotic words, then make them up. If you take them from somewhere else, then it feels like it's totally right to critique you on the subject.



No one said you couldn't, but rather you should think about when you do rather than flippantly adding something in because it sounds cool. Because really, that's what "phylactery" is.



Is it your past? Or someone else's? Because a lot of this wasn't Gygax's past.



This is not really a defense of anything as much a defense of everything.



No one's burning anything. No one's saying to stop playing the game. They are making a proactive change to an item name because they want to lose the fake exoticis

A lot? What else are you thinking of?

As well, are these things used in the game in an exclusively evil context like phylacteries for liches?

Right. Actually not all of them are evil at all (in dungeons and dragons anyway). Some are blessings and quite helpful.

you can invert holy water and holy symbols but not this device. You can even have evil clerics perform miracles that are part of other religions. But this is super harmful?

this one item is not what gets me. It’s the whole how many degrees of Kevin bacon we play with increasing amounts of stuff in game.

whatever. I guess they think they are really helping the folks offended by phylacteries. Good intentions count for something.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

As well, are these things used in the game in an exclusively evil context like phylacteries for liches?

Yeah, the "what about golems!" argument falls flat for me for a few main reasons:
1. It's a "whataboutism" fallacy meant to make people scared of an imaginary slippery slope.
2. Golems aren't evil in D&D/Pathfinder, they're mindless constructs that serve their master.
3. They're fairly close to the source material (at least the Clay Golem is).
4. Golems aren't a major part of the modern Jewish religion. Tefillin are. At least, in the sense that people today do wear tefillin, but golems aren't a thing that people make. It's the same reason why I'm fine with including Satyrs, Centaurs, Minotaurs, Angels, and Demons in D&D and Pathfinder, but not so comfortable with Lich Phylacteries, gods that are still being worshipped today, and other parts of real world cultures/religions.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Right. Actually not all of them are evil at all (in dungeons and dragons anyway). Some are blessings and quite helpful.

you can invert holy water and holy symbols but not this device. You can even have evil clerics perform miracles that are part of other religions. But this is super harmful?

this one item is not what gets me. It’s the whole how many degrees of Kevin bacon we play with increasing amounts of stuff in game.

whatever. I guess they think they are really helping the folks offended by phylacteries. Good intentions count for something.

Because a "phylactery" is something specific and not a generalized term like "altar", "miracle", "priest", "temple", and other things being brought up. This is not a "Degree of Kevin Bacon" as much as the first definition in Webster's.

Again, give me an affirmative argument for this thing. Why does it have to be called this more than anything else? What is the reason other than a slippery slope and tradition?The argument against making this decision comes off more reflexive than anything that actually involves what is being changed.