Idea for a genuinely horrifying horror campaign...

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Huh. I must be odd. I totally don't mind bait and switch.
I mean, as long as it's done well, it's fine with me.
Of course, there would be huge potential for it to be done really badly and become annoying, but I really trust my regular group, so I don't think it would be obnoxious.
For a stranger group game I might be apprehensive.

I agree. Honestly I'm kind of surprised that the primary reaction to this idea was to think of it as "bait and switch". If I were a player in this scenario I would love it. Done well, I would find it incredibly immersive.
 

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prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
I agree. Honestly I'm kind of surprised that the primary reaction to this idea was to think of it as "bait and switch". If I were a player in this scenario I would love it. Done well, I would find it incredibly immersive.
Pitched as one thing (Western), run as another (Horror). If you don't pitch it as at least like a Weird West thing, there'll be some people who'll feel as though they're not in the game they signed up for. I think you can take from the reactions you're finding puzzling that ... some gamers have had worse experiences with that than others.
 



Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Huh. I must be odd. I totally don't mind bait and switch.

It isn't like everyone always reacts the same way to it, or something.

To present an example of one issue - in a live-action game I once played NPCs for, one person I know was playing, and her character build was significantly based on engaging with the economic development aspects of the game. Then, on the third session, the entire game traveled a couple thousand years back in time. All her build investment, and relevance to the game vanished, without her knowing it would happen. Meanwhile, all the people who had put together combat builds were just fine. The historians were in amazingly positive positions. The commerce folks? Shafted.

In the OP's example, you're in the Old West. You expect lots of high noon shootout action. You invest in being the fastest draw in the West... and it turns out to be a horror game with mostly slow zombies that are effectively immune to bullets. Everyone is faster than the zombies, and the bullets do squat. Much of your build is wasted, and your character concept not relevant to the current situation.

And that's only considering the mechanical build issues, and not other expectations.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
It isn't like everyone always reacts the same way to it, or something.

To present an example of one issue - in a live-action game I once played NPCs for, one person I know was playing, and her character build was significantly based on engaging with the economic development aspects of the game. Then, on the third session, the entire game traveled a couple thousand years back in time. All her build investment, and relevance to the game vanished, without her knowing it would happen. Meanwhile, all the people who had put together combat builds were just fine. The historians were in amazingly positive positions. The commerce folks? Shafted.

In the OP's example, you're in the Old West. You expect lots of high noon shootout action. You invest in being the fastest draw in the West... and it turns out to be a horror game with mostly slow zombies that are effectively immune to bullets. Everyone is faster than the zombies, and the bullets do squat. Much of your build is wasted, and your character concept not relevant to the current situation.

And that's only considering the mechanical build issues, and not other expectations.

Ok, sure, but maybe it's possible to plan a campaign with a surprise twist AND help work with the players to prevent that kind of scenario.

In general I don't think playing whack-a-mole with examples is a useful form of discussion, so I hate to shoot down your example, but using it as a placeholder:

1) If the campaign starts off as traditional Old West, then there will still be lots of shoot outs. And even when it gets Weird(tm), it would be most effective if the theme still bounced unexpectedly between the supernatural and mundane. Sometimes the bad guy is really just a bad guy. (I'm thinking of the scene in Blue Velvet where the protagonists are being chased at night by a car and you're convinced it's the criminals, and it turns out it's just jealous high school rivals.)

2) Supernatural monsters aren't all slow-moving zombies, and in fact I imagine terrifying eldritch monsters springing out of the darkness so fast-draw could be awesome. But if that were the theme of the campaign, a GM could nudge players away from that ability without giving away the surprises. And if the player insisted, a (good) GM would make sure that ability played an important role.

In some ways this (surprising) debate reminds me of the discussions about metagaming, where some people constantly invoke "but what if a player or DM is a jerk?" arguments.

Instead of, "Oh, man, that could be really fun if it were done right" there's all this jaded/cynical "Oh, man, that could be really awful if it were done wrong." WTF?
 

Well, you asked for "thoughts", and this was apparently something that people immediately thought of. QUite possibly because they actually experienced it happening.
Even in a "regular" campaign you can discover that players are not deciding that their original ideas didn't work out due to the way the campaign developed, and be disappointed and frustrated. Suggesting the game is one thing and then it ending up being something else increases your chances of that happening.

So you should look out for ways to reduce the chance of that happening.
Look at what characters were actually build. If someone is building a card sharper that has been taking out various casinos, it is likely the player wants this to be a relevant part of the campaign where his character gets to shine. So have a plan for that when you turn to a horror game - maybe Death plays poker, too. If someone is playing a Marshall in pursuit of criminals, how does this stay relevant when beasts from the Far Realms invade the town? You hopefully know your players, so you should have a better guidance on what they find important about their characters and what they don't.
You could soften the "shock" by starting it off as a Weird West scenario and focusing on some goofy weird tech in early adventures and sneak in the supernatural and horrific later.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Look at what characters were actually build. If someone is building a card sharper that has been taking out various casinos, it is likely the player wants this to be a relevant part of the campaign where his character gets to shine. So have a plan for that when you turn to a horror game - maybe Death plays poker, too.

Yes, exactly! That's the spirit.

(Or maybe Death plays Twister and Battleship...)
 

MGibster

Legend
n some ways this (surprising) debate reminds me of the discussions about metagaming, where some people constantly invoke "but what if a player or DM is a jerk?" arguments.

Instead of, "Oh, man, that could be really fun if it were done right" there's all this jaded/cynical "Oh, man, that could be really awful if it were done wrong." WTF?
You know your players better than any of us do. If you think they'll go for that kind of bait and switch campaign then go ahead and give it a shot. (And I don't use bait & switch in a derogatory manner here.) I can appreciate that it's difficult when someone posts something and a lot of people end up telling you not to do it or it's a bad idea. So I apologize for adding on to that pile up. I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it. I see what you're trying to do and I do think it might be kind of cool if you can pull it off.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
If someone is playing a Marshall in pursuit of criminals, how does this stay relevant when beasts from the Far Realms invade the town?
I’m thinking that could play out a bit like Tremors. Whatever differences the protagonists and major NPCs might have had gets put aside…for now.

Of course, a truly twirly-mustached, black-hat wearing BBEG would still be thinking about seizing an opportunity to do away with the Marshall if the right opportunity presented itself…

”Lands o goshen! I do believe the Marshall has run afoul of that…THING that was chasing us.”

saloon door swings open

”I did when that barn door somehow got locked behind me, but I bamboozled thar monstrosity with a little trick I learned from an Apache scout a while back, and escaped out of the 2nd story window. Good thing it can’t climb ladders!”

sotto voce “Curses, foiled again!”
 

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