D&D 5E Tasha's really improved and changed the feel of Rangers

[Minigiant]

Yeah, they didn't get on that boat - thankfully - because it would have been the wrong boat.

You mean not wrong boat.

Rolling dice to add to Intelligence checks about favored enemies, Wisdom (Survival) checks while in the wilderness, Strength (Athletics) checks to swim or climb or run, Charisma (Intimidation) checks when speaking in your favored enemies tongue, and damage rolls vs large creatures woulda be awesome.


Missed the boat. Everyone knows rangers know all the most triggering, hateful, and hurtful thing one can say and they should be able to roll superiority dice to point out a high waisted dragon's feminine hips.

 

[Eric V]

Yeah, they didn't get on that boat - thankfully - because it would have been the wrong boat.

No, it wouldn't have.

You're entitled to your opinion, though, of course.

 

[ECMO3]

Half of that isn't true in 5e or most editions as base fighter and base rangers get the same thing from ability score, levels, and fighting styles.

No they don't. Fighters get an additional ASI at 6th level which will put them ahead of Rangers in ability score. Some of the fighting styles give them the same base, others don't because Rangers can't get them. Fighters also get more attacks per turn at higher levels and from level 2 on they get an entire extra action per short rest.

If you assume you fight 2 battles per short rest and each battle is 4 turns Action Surge accounts for a flat 12.5% increase in damage. I think 2 fights and 8 rounds is actually on the high side and in play it will usually be more than a 12.5% boost in damage output. At higher levels when fighters get more than 1 AS this boost is even more than and that is on top of the extra attack(s) they are getting every turn compared to rangers.

Finally the Ranger is generally more MAD then the fighter. A Ranger needs to invest in Wisdom to make use of most subclass abilities, additionally a strengh-Ranger needs to invest in dex to boost AC with medium armor. A Fighter can dump both of those. So not only does the fighter get more ASIs, he can easier focus them on combat stats. The Ranger can overcome this with Drudic Warrior, but this puts him behind the fighter because he can not take a true "martial" fighting style.

The other stuff is either arbitrarily locked from rangers due to not having better ideas for fighter or not real that logical.

If you are talking about fighting styles that is not true. GWF is locked out of Ranger and when combined with the higher damage weapons affords the highest base DPR of any fighting style. Additionally it is difficult to rate superior technique as there are a ton of variables that go into it, but considering the extra damage from the die itself and the extra damage from either the extra attack granted by the maneuver or the conditions imposed by maneuver, it is not safe to say this style will always be outdone by one of the Ranger combat styles. It depends on what maneuver you get and the type of battles you fight in.

Where 5e missed the boat is not making Superiority dice base for both fighters and rangers but restricting rangers to certain chosen targets like how the Hunter subclass works. The fighter would not be as restricted and be able to use dice on any target or specialize with certain equipment

Rangers cant get superiority dice at all except through a feat, while any fighter can get one through a fighting style. That is part of what I am talking about and I do not like the idea of making SD available to Rangers.

 

[Minigiant]

No they don't. Fighters get an additional ASI at 6th level which will put them ahead of Rangers in ability score. Some of the fighting styles give them the same base, others don't because Rangers can't get them. Fighters also get more attacks per turn at higher levels and from level 2 on they get an entire extra action per short rest.

If you assume you fight 2 battles per short rest and each battle is 4 turns Action Surge accounts for a flat 12.5% increase in damage. I think 2 fights and 8 rounds is actually on the high side and in play it will usually be more than a 12.5% boost in damage output. At higher levels when fighters get more than 1 AS this boost is even more than 12.5% and that is on top of the extra attack(s) they are getting every turn compared to rangers.

Finally the Ranger is generally more MAD then the fighter. A Ranger needs to invest in Wisdom to make use of most subclass abilities, additionally a strengh-Ranger needs to invest in dex to boost AC with medium armor. A Fighter can dump both of those. So not only does the fighter get more ASIs, he can easier focus them on combat stats. The Ranger can overcome this with Drudic Warrior, but this puts him behind the fighter because he can not take a true "martial" fighting style.

You are completely missing my point.

My point is nothing about Action Surge, Second Wind, and Indomitable feel like Fighter features to me. These features could, and in ways used to be, Ranger class features and could make sense as Ranger class features.

Hell, Tasha gave Rangers their own version of Second Wind in Tireless.

Really only Extra Attack (2) and Extra Attack (3) feel like Fighter exclusive class features to me.

If you are talking about fighting styles that is not true.
GWF is locked out of Ranger and when combined with the higher damage weapons affords the highest base DPR of any fighting style. Additionally it is difficult to rate superior technique as there are a ton of variables that go into it, but considering the extra damage from the die itself and the extra damage from either the extra attack granted by the maneuver or the conditions imposed by maneuver, it is not safe to say this style will always be outdone by one of the Ranger combat styles. It depends on what maneuver you get and the type of battles you fight in.

Yes but Fighters and Ranger share many fighting styles.

It's not that Rangers couldn't learn GWF. It's that they don't because it doesn't match their style.

It's not like fighters had access to advanced fighting styles or fighting masteryy to say "well rangers and paladins and especially barbarians don't train with weapon enough to get Great Weapon Mastery or Archery MAstery."

Rangers having knowldege of giants, speaking Draconic, finding 4 meals in the desert, having a climb speed, and shrugging off exhaustion all feel very rangery... to me anyway.

 

[ECMO3]

You are completely missing my point.

My point is nothing about Action Surge, Second Wind, and Indomitable feel like Fighter features to me. These features could, and in ways used to be, Ranger class features and could make sense as Ranger class features.

I think they are class defining. Moreover, whether they feel like fighter features or not they are, they provide much of the difference between fighter and other martials and a custom class chassis that does not include those is not a fighter chassis.

Hell, Tasha gave Rangers their own version of Second Wind in Tireless.

Not really. They get tireless at a much higher level, with much more uses, it provides temp hps instead of hps and much less of them ... and requires an action to use instead of a bonus action.

Really only Extra Attack (2) and Extra Attack (3) feel like Fighter exclusive class features to me.

The question I was answering is what separates the Fighter from the Ranger. Those things all separate the two whether they feel like fighter features or not, they are. Also I noted you left out heavy armor, and that is a pretty big feature.

Yes but Fighters and Ranger share many fighting styles.
It's not that Rangers couldn't learn GWF. It's that they don't because it doesn't match their style.

RAW Rangers can not learn GWF without using a feat to get it. It is not on their list of fighting styles. It is not only GWF, Rangers also can't learn superb technique, unarmed combat, protection or interception either. The fighter has 11 fighting styles, the Ranger only has access to 6 of them, slightly over half.

It's not like fighters had access to advanced fighting styles or fighting masteryy to say "well rangers and paladins and especially barbarians don't train with weapon enough to get Great Weapon Mastery or Archery MAstery."

Barbarians have no fighting styles. Paladins do have GWF, but not Archery. Fighters have them both because they are masters at all this, not speacialized pockets like those other classes. As noted in the PHB "as fighters, they all share an unparalleled mastery with weapons and armor"

Rangers having knowldege of giants, speaking Draconic, finding 4 meals in the desert, having a climb speed, and shrugging off exhaustion all feel very rangery... to me anyway.

Sure and they give up the things that fighters have but don't "feel" Fighter-like to you to get it.

 

[Mordhau]

Hmmm....everything that Figher's get is basically purely mechanical stuff. It's purely stuff that interacts with the game rules, and not really with the fiction.

By this I mean you see a Paladin in the game world you know he can heal you by laying on hands and can smite things for holy damage that is especially effective against certain types of creatures.

You see a Fighter in the game world and you know they fight well (like the Paladin and the Ranger) and have special training in certain kinds of weapons (like the Paladin and Ranger). You don't know they can break the action economy by attacking again because you don't know what the action economy is and you don't know they can heal hit points because you don't know what those are either.

 

[Minigiant]

Hmmm....everything that Figher's get is basically purely mechanical stuff. It's purely stuff that interacts with the game rules, and not really with the fiction.

By this I mean you see a Paladin in the game world you know he can heal you by laying on hands and can smite things for holy damage that is especially effective against certain types of creatures.

You see a Fighter in the game world and you know they fight well (like the Paladin and the Ranger) and have special training in certain kinds of weapons (like the Paladin and Ranger). You don't know they can break the action economy by attacking again because you don't know what the action economy is and you don't know they can heal hit points because you don't know what those are either.

Indeed, this was always the key issue.

The fiction for Fighters and Ranger is fictionalized real life. Real life that many don't understand as it is partial real life and real life gamers don't all interact with it. Sounlike blantant over the top magic, fighter, ranger (and rogue) stuff are simplified or unrelated to the fiction. Everyone is not a hardcore fan of martial arts or real or fake combat sports, survival skill, and various nature and earth sciences enough to understand nor design fantastical version of them.

You kinda have to understand fighting or rangering to know the difference between a proficient user and a master user outside of "the numbers are higher".

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Indeed, this was always the key issue.

Paladins and Ranger should not have fighting styles: mixing martial prowess and magic is their fighting style. It's not the like the paladin would be much weaker by not having a FS, though the ranger might need a little oomph (ideally concentration-less) to somewhat meet the paladin in terms of damage.

 

[Minigiant]

Paladins and Ranger should not have fighting styles: mixing martial prowess and magic is their fighting style. It's not the like the paladin would be much weaker by not having a FS, though the ranger might need a little oomph (ideally concentration-less) to somewhat meet the paladin in terms of damage.

Rangers should have fighting styles

They should be:
Colossus Slayer
Giant Killer
Horde Beaker
Druidic Warrior

Tassha's made Superiority Dice (a subclass feature) a fighting Style. They shoulda made Hunter's Prey a fighting style.

Missed the boat

 

[ECMO3]

Hmmm....everything that Figher's get is basically purely mechanical stuff. It's purely stuff that interacts with the game rules, and not really with the fiction.

By this I mean you see a Paladin in the game world you know he can heal you by laying on hands and can smite things for holy damage that is especially effective against certain types of creatures.

You see a Fighter in the game world and you know they fight well (like the Paladin and the Ranger) and have special training in certain kinds of weapons (like the Paladin and Ranger). You don't know they can break the action economy by attacking again because you don't know what the action economy is and you don't know they can heal hit points because you don't know what those are either.

I don't know. We roll it into the fiction in our games. Fighters know weapons and armor more so than the others. And the rules give more flexibility to optimize in that regard. There is also a lot of fiction and theme in the subclasses.

If your sneaky Fighter in leather and a Rapier comes across a magic longsword and plate, he can switch gears easier than most and optimize for it. In terms of the mechanics that works better when you roll stats but even with the 8 strength dex fighter you can still do it if you find some other magic.