D&D 5E Using social skills on other PCs

[Charlaquin]

as long as you think that trump card means something, when I have told you repeateldy I am useing common language reading you might as well be sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling

Right, like I said, there’s no point arguing because we have no consistent basis on which to form meaning. If you’re not employing logic, there’s no argument to be had. You can state that up is down and we have no principles from which to determine the accuracy of that statement.

then show me an end result diffrence. do you want me to repost the examples of play?

It’s difficult for me to do so, because we have very different fundamental understandings of the rules. I have to like fully deconstruct your example down to basic principles to explain why I’m not even coming at it from the same direction as you are. And it’s pretty hard for me to care enough to do that work when we can’t even agree on how to formulate meaning.

But sure, knock yourself out.

 

[HammerMan]

1. That's not even your post but let's go with it

I didn't say it was. I said it was provided, not by me... others share my stance.

2. That quote is from the PHB for how a PC might attempt to influence someone else

it is a quote on how a skill works, unless you can show me an exception where NPCs treat skills diffrent?

So, tell us b/c I'm not connecting the dots here: how does that rule explicitly apply to an NPC who is trying to influence someone else? Is the DM maybe asking themselves to make a Charisma (Persuasion) check for the NPC? You mention DCs in another post...

Can you show us where this DC setting rule is?

no I can't show you the DC setting rule, I can try to google it, but since I don't use the book for it (as I have explained) I don't really remember it too well...

wow found it right away

Typical Difficulty Classes​

Task Difficulty	DC
Very easy	5
Easy	10
Medium	15
Hard	20
Very hard	25
Nearly impossible	30

To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier. As with other d20 rolls, apply bonuses and penalties, and compare the total to the DC. If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success--the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the GM.

Contests​

Sometimes one character's or monster's efforts are directly opposed to another's. This can occur when both of them are trying to do the same thing and only one can succeed, such as attempting to snatch up a magic ring that has fallen on the floor. This situation also applies when one of them is trying to prevent the other one from accomplishing a goal--for example, when a monster tries to force open a door that an adventurer is holding closed. In situations like these, the outcome is determined by a special form of ability check, called a contest.
Both participants in a contest make ability checks appropriate to their efforts. They apply all appropriate bonuses and penalties, but instead of comparing the total to a DC, they compare the totals of their two checks. The participant with the higher check total wins the contest. That character or monster either succeeds at the action or prevents the other one from succeeding.
If the contest results in a tie, the situation remains the same as it was before the contest. Thus, one contestant might win the contest by default. If two characters tie in a contest to snatch a ring off the floor, neither character grabs it. In a contest between a monster trying to open a door and an adventurer trying to keep the door closed, a tie means that the door remains shut.

Skills​

Each ability covers a broad range of capabilities, including skills that a character or a monster can be proficient in. A skill represents a specific aspect of an ability score, and an individual's proficiency in a skill demonstrates a focus on that aspect. (A character's starting skill proficiencies are determined at character creation, and a monster's skill proficiencies appear in the monster's stat block.)
For example, a Dexterity check might reflect a character's attempt to pull off an acrobatic stunt, to palm an object, or to stay hidden. Each of these aspects of Dexterity has an associated skill: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth, respectively. So a character who has proficiency in the Stealth skill is particularly good at Dexterity checks related to sneaking and hiding.
The skills related to each ability score are shown in the following list. (No skills are related to Constitution.) See an ability's description in the later sections of this section for examples of how to use a skill associated with an ability.

Strength​

• Athletics

Dexterity​

• Acrobatics
• Sleight of Hand
• Stealth

Intelligence​

• Arcana
• History
• Investigation
• Nature
• Religion

Wisdom​

• Animal Handling
• Insight
• Medicine
• Perception
• Survival

Charisma​

• Deception
• Intimidation
• Performance
• Persuasion

 

[HammerMan]

Right, like I said, there’s no point arguing because we have no consistent basis on which to form meaning. If you’re not employing logic, there’s no argument to be had. You can state that up is down and we have no principles from which to determine the accuracy of that statement.

funny, I don't think common sense or common language reading of up can be read as down...

It’s difficult for me to do so, because we have very different fundamental understandings of the rules.

so take the story points and apply YOUR reading of the rules.

I have to like fully deconstruct your example down to basic principles to explain why I’m not even coming at it from the same direction as you are.

okay try that then, at least we can see where you end up

And it’s pretty hard for me to care enough to do that work when we can’t even agree on how to formulate meaning.

only because you refuse to acknowledge that the rules are not written as a legal or scientific document, but a common language one.

 

[HammerMan]

found on the skills page of the SRD

Skills​

Each ability covers a broad range of capabilities, including skills that a character or a monster can be proficient in. A skill represents a specific aspect of an ability score, and an individual's proficiency in a skill demonstrates a focus on that aspect. (A character's starting skill proficiencies are determined at character creation, and a monster's skill proficiencies appear in the monster's stat block.)
For example, a Dexterity check might reflect a character's attempt to pull off an acrobatic stunt, to palm an object, or to stay hidden. Each of these aspects of Dexterity has an associated skill: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth, respectively. So a character who has proficiency in the Stealth skill is particularly good at Dexterity checks related to sneaking and hiding.
The skills related to each ability score are shown in the following list. (No skills are related to Constitution.) See an ability's description in the later sections of this section for examples of how to use a skill associated with an ability.

Strength​

• Athletics

Dexterity​

• Acrobatics
• Sleight of Hand
• Stealth

Intelligence​

• Arcana
• History
• Investigation
• Nature
• Religion

Wisdom​

• Animal Handling
• Insight
• Medicine
• Perception
• Survival

Charisma​

• Deception
• Intimidation
• Performance
• Persuasion

Ability Checks - 5th Edition SRD

Rule for making ability checks, contents, group and passive checks from the 5th Edition (5e) System Reference Document (SRD)

5thsrd.org

nowhere does it carve out the Charisma skills

 

[Bill Zebub]

That’s not accurate. There are many ways in which the rules for NPCs differ from the rules for PCs. The way their HP is calculated is a simple example, as is the way their proficiency bonuses are determined. In recent books, the rules for spellcasting are different between them as well.

If “NPCs use the same rules as PCs” was a general rule, I would agree that exceptions to it would need to be mentioned explicitly. However, I am not aware of anywhere that this is stated as a general rule, and my counter-examples above seem to me to demonstrate that it is not.

NPC archetypes (e.g. "Thug") clearly don't follow PC rules for character creation. Attributes, skill, saving throw proficiencies....none of it maps to any valid PC.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I didn't say it was. I said it was provided, not by me... others share my stance.

Ok, but you kept telling us to "go back and reread my responses" and "you have been given page numbers, examples of play, and what I do"... you see how that response is confusing when we asked you for citations and quotes to support your assertions? I see now that you have not yourself provided any citations or quotes with interpretations aside them. I'm glad we cleared that up.

it is a quote on how a skill works, unless you can show me an exception where NPCs treat skills diffrent?

Can you provide the rule where it says to treat NPCs skills the same? Check out the Social Interaction rules that I mentioned previously (DMG p 244-245). Are you saying that, per the rules, we should be using the Conversation Reaction rules to determine how PCs react because ability checks in social interaction for NPCs and PCs are to be run exactly the same way?

no I can't show you the DC setting rule, I can try to google it, but since I don't use the book for it (as I have explained) I don't really remember it too well...

wow found it right away

Typical Difficulty Classes​

Task Difficulty	DC
Very easy	5
Easy	10
Medium	15
Hard	20
Very hard	25
Nearly impossible	30

You said you House Rule this... how is it you set a DC for whether a PC is Persuaded/Intimidated/Deceived by an NPC?

 

[Maxperson]

as long as you think that trump card means something, when I have told you repeateldy I am useing common language reading you might as well be sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling

The common language of, "Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins." is that it takes a specific contradiction to create an exception to the general rule. So no, you aren't just using common language readings.

You're also ignoring the common language, "The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results." and "Only call for a roll if there is a meaningful consequence for failure." that both say when an ability check is called for.

 

[iserith]

no matter how many times you cut nd paste this aruement it is not going to end this discussion.

except I am not defending my preference I am explaining why YOUR preference is not the only way to read the rules.

I don't intend to end the discussion. That is not my goal. What I "cut and paste" though are the rules, whether you like them or not or use them or not.

My preference is to play the game in a way that is supported by the rules because I think the game works better that way. Even so, I employ house rules regularly so that the rules align with a particular theme or setting I am trying to present. What I would not do is try to present those house rules as the actual rules of the game in the rules books or suggest that my house rule was supported by the rules, especially by making astounding leaps of logic or ignoring the rules that showed my assertions to be wrong.

It's okay to use a die roll to inform one's description of the environment. It's not so different from using roll tables to generate content. But it's not an ability check in the way the rules of the game intend.

 

[Maxperson]

found on the skills page of the SRD

Ability Checks - 5th Edition SRD

Rule for making ability checks, contents, group and passive checks from the 5th Edition (5e) System Reference Document (SRD)

5thsrd.org

nowhere does it carve out the Charisma skills

And nowhere is a failure to carve out Charisma skills an an exception that specifically contradicts.

 

[Charlaquin]

1) me as a player. I tell the DM my Elf walks into the bar. She describes the bar, including a whole adventureing party. I go to buy a room and one thing leads to another and the dwarf NPC from that adventureing party picks a fight (verbal) with my elf. after RPing back and forth the Dwarf tried to intimdate my elf. I am not my elf, the dm is not the dwarf, we are playing those roles though. becuse this GAME has a stat call cha and a skill called inimadate the DM rolls and tells me she got a 4 (roll of 2+2 prof no cha mod). I now make an informed choice knowing that this was not very intimadating. (in some alternate world maybe she rolled a 19+2 for a 21, and I would know they were VERY intimadating) at no point did I loose or forgo agenecy here. I am still controling my elf. I still get to decide how he reacts.

Alright, so it seems like the heart of your question here is how to resolve the dwarf NPC picking a verbal fight with your character. It’s difficult for me to figure out how exactly I would execute this, because I don’t know the context of why this fight is happening in the first place - did you insult the dwarf somehow? Is this an encounter I’ve specifically set up as DM? I don’t know, there’s different ways I might handle this. But ok, let’s assume this is part of a planned encounter - maybe the dwarf is part of a local gang you’ve been causing trouble for. I would describe the dwarf’s action in terms of goal and approach. So, the dwarf wants to… What, get you to leave the tavern? Sure, let’s go with that. I’d tell you that the dwarf makes it clear that he and his friends want you to leave, and you can do it the easy way or the hard way. He puts his hand on the axe at his belt as he does so - not drawing it yet, but ready for if a fight starts. His companions follow suit. What do you do?

That’s a reasonable example of how an interaction like this might go down at my table. Note that I’m just following the basic pattern of play, describing the environment and then letting you describe what your character does in response.

2) me as a DM. two players want to buy a dog from a breeder. I as the DM know I have stats for a cool smart dog better then the MM/PHB that I have been sitting on for months. player 1 and NPC talk, I have him brag about how his dogs have both blink dog and dire wolf in them... player offers 2gp and I have NPC laugh and say "For a rare powerhouse like this, no that will be 10gp." Now the PCs decide they think they can push around the breeder. One aids the other and they say they are "intimadating the breeder into taking the 2gp" I as the DM tell the one with the higher skill to roll with advantage, and they get some huge number (it doesn't matter lets say a 27) now I have no rules in any book or even in my notes on how the breeder reacts. I have to decide quickly. SO I have him fall backwards afried, and the dogs all move up and growl... no rule no roll took away my againcy, and it is the same for the PCs

I actually addressed this one earlier in the thread. The PCs haven’t given me enough information to resolve this action. They said they try to "[intimadate] the breeder into taking the 2gp,” which tells me their goal (to get the breeder to give them the dog for 2gp), and that they think proficiency in the intimidation skill will help them in achieving that goal. They have not said what their characters are doing to try and achieve that goal, to which they think the intimidation proficiency might apply. So my response would be something along the lines of “I’m hearing that you want to coerce him into giving you the dog for 2gp, and that you think your intimidation proficiency would be applicable. What are your characters doing to try and get him to do that?”