D&D 5E On Representation and Roleplaying

[Vaalingrade]

This is a really important point that should be emphasised.

Sometimes people want to be represented by something close to what their lived reality is, and not just magic solutions that in some ways wipes out who they are.

And also, considering what such people are suggesting the belts are representing, the fact that magic is unnecessarily rare and prohibitively expensive even for those that want it is telling an entirely different story that they thought of or intended.

 

[ad_hoc]

People are seeing extremes were there are none.

Throughout this thread people have said that the important thing is for people to have good intentions and listen to others for their viewpoints.

And then people come in and respond about how extreme measures aren't helpful.

In the case of Critical Role they can afford to hire some people to consult. It isn't extreme to ask them to do so.

 

[Malmuria]

A lot of those representation issues are, sadly, about appearances.

No one would ever question a team of black writer creating an Africa inspired setting, even when the writers and their parents were all born in the USA and have not even visited Africa apart from maybe a small tourist visit.
Yet a white team of writers with the same background would be questioned and criticized for appropriating.

Race is one axis of discrimination, global geography is another. Even an independent product made in the US, in English, will be able to take advantage of resources and find an audience/distribution that might not be as possible in other countries. I don't think the fact that representation and identity is layered, intersectional, and complex is a good reason to ignore existing power dynamics or characterize attempts to address them as censorship

The "but in some points in the past they were repressed" is imo not a good explanation or excuse for why person A today gets criticized while person B gets a free pass.

*still repressed

 

[Oofta]

Again, what we are saying here is not that they are dismissed out of hand as unable to represent the culture. What we are saying is:

• Historically they've been unable or unwilling to do it without the use of stereotypes and harmfull generalizations;
• If you are going to do it you should either do the work to know the culture to avoid said stereotypes or pay someone to do that for you (cultural consultants);

It feels like 2 things are being conflated here. Are we talking about what I do in my own private home campaign or public media in general? I think there are correlations between the two but they are not the same thing.

Has Hollywood and mass media done a poor job of representing viewpoints and input from non white males? Absolutely. On the other hand, as witnessed by CR criticism even having consultants isn't ever going to be enough for some people. Matt and company can't change their ethnicity, I don't think that it means that they should somehow not be allowed to represent a region that has some resemblance to something other than psuedo-European generic fantasy world.

Then there's advice on handling this stuff in a home campaign. To me that's also an area potentially full of land mines but also worthy of discussion.

 

[BookTenTiger]

It feels like 2 things are being conflated here. Are we talking about what I do in my own private home campaign or public media in general? I think there are correlations between the two but they are not the same thing.

Has Hollywood and mass media done a poor job of representing viewpoints and input from non white males? Absolutely. On the other hand, as witnessed by CR criticism even having consultants isn't ever going to be enough for some people. Matt and company can't change their ethnicity, I don't think that it means that they should somehow not be allowed to represent a region that has some resemblance to something other than psuedo-European generic fantasy world.

Then there's advice on handling this stuff in a home campaign. To me that's also an area potentially full of land mines but also worthy of discussion.

I think they are two distinct things, and I agree with the OP:

At your home table, roleplaying is a great opportunity to try out different identities, as long as you are doing so respectfully.

For publishing and media aspects of D&D, diversity should be supported through hiring and inclusion of diverse voices and participation.

In other words, Oofta at his table should experiment and play diverse roles. But if Oofta was producing a D&D TV show, then he should collaborate with creators of diverse perspectives and experience. Right?

 

[Bolares]

On the other hand, as witnessed by CR criticism even having consultants isn't ever going to be enough for some people.

This is where we have to be careful. "some people" isn't the same as everyone, or even the majority. That article is a bad take, understandable, but still a bad take. But it existing doesn't take away from the fact that if we want to represent another culture in our work we have to do the work to do that culture justice.

Then there's advice on handling this stuff in a home campaign. To me that's also an area potentially full of land mines but also worthy of discussion.

It's all very much worthy of discussion. Only by discussing we can grow. I'm just worried that we might fall on the "slipery slope" argument and never do the tough work because we are afraid of potential risks hidden in overcorrections. Let's focus on this thread, has anyone made a reasonable argument that someone like Matt shouldn't ever try an aproach a culture he does not represent?

 

[Malmuria]

The writers of Into the Motherlands have so far not shown much knowledge about Mali (for example implying slavery only came with the Europeans) and don't really use much of the culture of Mali for their scify/fantasy game except as backstory and (heavyI name dropping without, as far as I can see, actually using anything cultural from Mali.

The Into the Motherlands book isn't out yet, but afaik the setting is afrofuturist, a well-established subgenre of science fiction. Afrofuturism is very much a diasporic literature and aesthetic, that is, it emerges from Black people in the Americas contending with their shared history of forced diaspora. It's not historical fiction, which is why afrofuturist stories take place in an imagined counterfactual future. So this critique is misplaced given what the authors' goals are (while also making assumptions about the authors' supposed lack of knowledge).

Moreover, it was a fairly successful kickstarter, but still an indie rpg project, and as such has a much much lower profile than a book like Tomb of Annihilation (2017), a "fantasy africa" that was made with no Black authors or consultants and, despite some relatively minor criticism, is still one of the most popular 5e adventures. The existence and success of this book belies any claim that there is censorship going on; meanwhile, it's not surprising that the aforementioned minor criticism will come with a wotc release, given that most rpg media focuses on wotc releases.

 

[Oofta]

I think they are two distinct things, and I agree with the OP:

At your home table, roleplaying is a great opportunity to try out different identities, as long as you are doing so respectfully.

For publishing and media aspects of D&D, diversity should be supported through hiring and inclusion of diverse voices and participation.

In other words, Oofta at his table should experiment and play diverse roles. But if Oofta was producing a D&D TV show, then he should collaborate with creators of diverse perspectives and experience. Right?

Yes. If I were publishing a campaign book based on beliefs from ancient Japan that I should make my best effort to get accurate information including hiring a consultant if I have the budget? Of course.

But in at least some cases (I hate pointing back to CR, but it's an easy target) CR has hired consultants and there's still pushback saying that it's not correct because they're "a group of people engaging with cultural touchstones that they aren’t a part of." What would make it acceptable? Fire one of the players and replace them with someone who happens to have a corresponding ethnicity even if, like me, they're several generations separated? Limit themselves to cultures dominated by caucasians?

Having said that, there are experiences that I simply can't fully relate to and I accept that. No matter how many consultants I hire I'm never going to really know what it's like to be hispanic in the US. I don't think there's one answer, it's a complicated topic. I just disagree with some of the gatekeeping based on ethnicity.

 

[Bolares]

But in at least some cases (I hate pointing back to CR, but it's an easy target) CR has hired consultants and there's still pushback saying that it's not correct because they're "a group of people engaging with cultural touchstones that they aren’t a part of."

CR got to a point that no matter what they do they will get push back. The important thing is to separate valid criticism from hate and bad takes made only for the sake of views...

 

[BookTenTiger]

Yes. If I were publishing a campaign book based on beliefs from ancient Japan that I should make my best effort to get accurate information including hiring a consultant if I have the budget? Of course.

But in at least some cases (I hate pointing back to CR, but it's an easy target) CR has hired consultants and there's still pushback saying that it's not correct because they're "a group of people engaging with cultural touchstones that they aren’t a part of." What would make it acceptable? Fire one of the players and replace them with someone who happens to have a corresponding ethnicity even if, like me, they're several generations separated? Limit themselves to cultures dominated by caucasians?

Having said that, there are experiences that I simply can't fully relate to and I accept that. No matter how many consultants I hire I'm never going to really know what it's like to be hispanic in the US. I don't think there's one answer, it's a complicated topic. I just disagree with some of the gatekeeping based on ethnicity.

I would say that the pushback CR is getting is just part of the broader conversation. There's always going to be pushback from someone, and support from others. As a creator, you use both voices to find where you want to be.