D&D 5E Using social skills on other PCs

[Faolyn]

That's one way to run it.

But with the merchant, there is cost involved. AND there the "A successful charisma check MIGHT be required..." So an equally valid way to run it is if the outcome is not in doubt, no amount of friendly or charisma is going to make a difference.

Well yes, that's a given. Charm person isn't mind-control. You still have to influence the person. That's exactly why the charmed condition gives you advantage on social interaction rolls on them.

But charm person makes the person friendly, and a friendly person is automatically going to help you in some way, according to that table in the DMG. The roll is to determine how far they are willing to go. And even assuming a Charisma of 10 and no proficiency in any Charisma skills, with advantage you will on average beat a DC 10. Which means minor risk or sacrifice.

Which means if a completely average caster charms a typical NPC merchant, they can likely get at least a minor item for free or at serious discount. Whether the item the PC wants is considered minor depends on a lot of things, of course.

That means that even if your wizard comes up to Ebenezer Scrooge(pre-ghosts) and casts Charm Person on him, Scrooge isn't going to give him free money, friendly or not. He would still want you to succeed in getting the money you are asking for, and would very helpfully give you directions to a different money lender, but would not give it to you himself. The outcome is not in doubt. You wouldn't be getting free money from Scrooge, no matter what your persuasion ability.

That's why I kept talking about the personality of the merchant. Scrooge--pre or post ghosts--is not a typical NPC merchant. He has a name and probably a fully fleshed out statblock and TBIF section.

But OTOH, imagine if the PC is, say, a 10th-level bard with 20 Charisma and expertise in Persuasion? That's +13 to the roll, with advantage and who knows what other sort of bonuses (maybe the cleric cast guidance on the bard; maybe the warlock cast bane on Scrooge), who then gets to roll with advantage? Yeah, I might allow it. When you get people who can roll a 30 or higher on their Persuasion checks, you can allow these sort of shenanigans.

Especially because 10th-level bards are not 14th-level enchanters, and thus both Scrooge and the typical NPC merchants will know they were charmed. And they likely have the ability to make the PCs' lives less happy because of it.

Also, don't forget that Scrooge was stingy because he didn't want to spend money on amenities for himself or for decent wages for his employees. But if the PCs are posing as investors of some sort, who will use Scrooge's money to make him a ginormous profit? That'll likely bypass the stinginess and amp up his greed.

 

[Maxperson]

Well yes, that's a given. Charm person isn't mind-control. You still have to influence the person. That's exactly why the charmed condition gives you advantage on social interaction rolls on them.

But charm person makes the person friendly, and a friendly person is automatically going to help you in some way, according to that table in the DMG. The roll is to determine how far they are willing to go. And even assuming a Charisma of 10 and no proficiency in any Charisma skills, with advantage you will on average beat a DC 10. Which means minor risk or sacrifice.

Which means if a completely average caster charms a typical NPC merchant, they can likely get at least a minor item for free or at serious discount. Whether the item the PC wants is considered minor depends on a lot of things, of course.

Just a quibble. First, Charm Person doesn't say friendly. It says friendly acquaintance, which is different from saying "Attitude changes to friendly." Second, it doesn't even do that to the target. The spell causes the target to view YOU as a friendly acquaintance, so you become "friendly" to him in his eyes. The targets demeanor is unaffected by the spell. So an indifferent merchant remains indifferent, but views you as a friendly acquaintance. He might help you, or he might not. If it's something he might do, then you get advantage to the roll. If it's something he won't do, there is no roll.

That's why I kept talking about the personality of the merchant. Scrooge--pre or post ghosts--is not a typical NPC merchant. He has a name and probably a fully fleshed out statblock and TBIF section.

The typical merchant is out to make money, not lose it.

But OTOH, imagine if the PC is, say, a 10th-level bard with 20 Charisma and expertise in Persuasion? That's +13 to the roll, with advantage and who knows what other sort of bonuses (maybe the cleric cast guidance on the bard; maybe the warlock cast bane on Scrooge), who then gets to roll with advantage? Yeah, I might allow it. When you get people who can roll a 30 or higher on their Persuasion checks, you can allow these sort of shenanigans.

You might, but I don't allow high numbers to make someone do something that they absolutely would not do. On the other hand, I do take those numbers into consideration when deciding if something is possible or not and sometimes I'll alter what is or is not possible. Other times I do not, because no amount of fast talking goodness can achieve it.

 

[Charlaquin]

Just a quibble. First, Charm Person doesn't say friendly. It says friendly acquaintance, which is different from saying "Attitude changes to friendly."

I agree with you here, but now that you mention it, that would actually be a really good house rule to clear up the ambiguity as to what exactly “treating the caster as a friendly acquaintance” means.

 

[Faolyn]

Just a quibble. First, Charm Person doesn't say friendly. It says friendly acquaintance, which is different from saying "Attitude changes to friendly." Second, it doesn't even do that to the target. The spell causes the target to view YOU as a friendly acquaintance, so you become "friendly" to him in his eyes. The targets demeanor is unaffected by the spell. So an indifferent merchant remains indifferent, but views you as a friendly acquaintance. He might help you, or he might not. If it's something he might do, then you get advantage to the roll. If it's something he won't do, there is no roll.

Yeah, these are quibbles. If that's how you want to run it in your game, fine, but I see it as very differently.

For instance, I'd have to go and double-check, but I don't think they ever say that someone's attitude changes to friendly (or hostile) anywhere in any of the books. They do say things like "the target becomes hostile" (as per friends). So I think we can safely assume that this is an example of the naturalistic language that 5e uses.

Secondly, charm person makes the target view you in a friendly light. This means that their demeanor to you has changed. You can't claim that someone both views you as a friendly acquaintance and is indifferent to you at the same time. Neither RAW nor RAI supports the idea that charm person would make the target go "Oh gods, its that guy again. Does he ever stop trying to buddy up to me?"

Thirdly, the charmed condition means that I have advantage on any social rolls made against the target. And literally the entire purpose of the Persuasion skill--which is a social skill--is to get people to change their mind about things and convince them to do things they're not necessarily interested in.

And as I keep saying, it's entirely up to the individual in question. With decent enough fast-talking on the part of the caster, yes, they could get the merchant to do something that involves risk or sacrifice. Because even if the spell doesn't make the person Friendly as per the table, the advantage on your rolls would make sure that you could turn the person Friendly before you ask them to give you a thing.

Because in case you didn't get it, I'm not assuming that things go like this:

DM: OK, you enter the store. There's the merchant.

Player: I cast charm person. "You, shopkeep, give me that thing."

DM: [as merchant] "Yes master."

That's a fail. But if the PC casts the spell and takes the time to speak to the merchant and butter them up (possibly involving Persuasion and Deception rolls, possibly just pure RP), and then ask for the thing. Yes, I'd allow it.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, these are quibbles. If that's how you want to run it in your game, fine, but I see it as very differently.

For instance, I'd have to go and double-check, but I don't think they ever say that someone's attitude changes to friendly (or hostile) anywhere in any of the books. They do say things like "the target becomes hostile" (as per friends). So I think we can safely assume that this is an example of the naturalistic language that 5e uses.

DMG page 244

"Choose the starting attitude of a creature the adventurers are interacting with: friendly, indifferent, or hostile.

So you choose one of the three attitudes to start with.

"Changing Attitude. The attitude of a creature might change over the course of a conversation. If the adventurers say or do the right things during an interaction (perhaps by touching on a creature's ideal, bond, or flaw), they can make a hostile creature temporarily indifferent, or make an indifferent creature temporarily friendly. Likewise, a gaffe, insult, or harmful deed might make a friendly creature temporarily indifferent or turn an indifferent creature hostile."

So there it talks about changing attitude from one to another.

Secondly, charm person makes the target view you in a friendly light. This means that their demeanor to you has changed. You can't claim that someone both views you as a friendly acquaintance and is indifferent to you at the same time. Neither RAW nor RAI supports the idea that charm person would make the target go "Oh gods, its that guy again. Does he ever stop trying to buddy up to me?"

"You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you."

That's the whole spell. Nothing about viewing anyone in a friendly light. You regard the caster as a friendly acquaintance(not friend), but that's it.

Thirdly, the charmed condition means that I have advantage on any social rolls made against the target. And literally the entire purpose of the Persuasion skill--which is a social skill--is to get people to change their mind about things and convince them to do things they're not necessarily interested in.

Sure. IF you get a roll, you get advantage. Nothing about the charmed condition guarantees that you will get a roll.

And as I keep saying, it's entirely up to the individual in question. With decent enough fast-talking on the part of the caster, yes, they could get the merchant to do something that involves risk or sacrifice.

As long as it's something he would do for any old friendly acquaintance(someone you've met a few times at a party) he has, sure. I doubt many people would engage in any kind of risk or sacrifice for someone that's only a friendly acquaintance.

Because even if the spell doesn't make the person Friendly as per the table, the advantage on your rolls would make sure that you could turn the person Friendly before you ask them to give you a thing.

Maybe, but you're still not going to get them to do something that they would not do for any other friend of theirs.

Because in case you didn't get it, I'm not assuming that things go like this:

DM: OK, you enter the store. There's the merchant.

Player: I cast charm person. "You, shopkeep, give me that thing."

DM: [as merchant] "Yes master."

That's a fail. But if the PC casts the spell and takes the time to speak to the merchant and butter them up (possibly involving Persuasion and Deception rolls, possibly just pure RP), and then ask for the thing. Yes, I'd allow it.

I do get it. But at the end of the day it's just a first level spell. It's functionality shouldn't be any better than slight healing, a little bit of damage and so on. The way you're describing it is as if it's much more than that. It's just a minor bit of influence at the end of the day. They used the words "friendly acquaintance" for a reason.

 

[Lanefan]

You also have all these attributes listed. Do you “use” them? If yes, then it’s exactly the same answer for skills.

I invoke and use my Strength attribute every time I swing a melee weapon; I add the bonus it gives me to my roll, though I could choose not to.

I invoke and use my Dexterity attribute every time I try to dodge a blow; I add the bonus it gives me to my AC, though I could choose not to.

I don't get to invoke and use my own skills, though. The DM decides which one(s) I get to use, and when I get to use them. Big difference.

 

[Lanefan]

In 5th edition, they’re there to allow you to add your proficiency bonus to a subset of ability checks when the DM calls for them.

If you’re playing smart, your goal should be to avoid having to make a roll, rather than actively trying to make one, since rolls can fail. In the unfortunate event that you can’t eliminate the possibility of failure and must make an ability check, your proficiency in Intimidate makes failure on that roll less likely.

Au contraire - I'd very often want to get it to a roll so the DM can't auto-fail me.

 

[Maxperson]

Au contraire - I'd very often want to get it to a roll so the DM can't auto-fail me.

If the DM is acting in good faith, you'll also auto succeed a good amount of the time. Rolling for everything would cause you to fail more often.

 

[Faolyn]

DMG page 244

"Choose the starting attitude of a creature the adventurers are interacting with: friendly, indifferent, or hostile.

So you choose one of the three attitudes to start with.

"Changing Attitude. The attitude of a creature might change over the course of a conversation. If the adventurers say or do the right things during an interaction (perhaps by touching on a creature's ideal, bond, or flaw), they can make a hostile creature temporarily indifferent, or make an indifferent creature temporarily friendly. Likewise, a gaffe, insult, or harmful deed might make a friendly creature temporarily indifferent or turn an indifferent creature hostile."

So there it talks about changing attitude from one to another.

Right. You're turning a potentially indifferent or hostile individual into a friendly one.

That's the whole spell. Nothing about viewing anyone in a friendly light. You regard the caster as a friendly acquaintance(not friend), but that's it.

I didn't say it made them into a friend. I said it made them Friendly. Exactly what the spell says it does.

Sure. IF you get a roll, you get advantage. Nothing about the charmed condition guarantees that you will get a roll.

...Why wouldn't the PC roll to see how good they are at Persuading or Deceiving an NPC?

As long as it's something he would do for any old friendly acquaintance(someone you've met a few times at a party) he has, sure. I doubt many people would engage in any kind of risk or sacrifice for someone that's only a friendly acquaintance.

Tell that to the DMG. It specifically says that it might be impossible to change the mind of a hostile NPC. Says nothing similar about friendly or indifferent ones.

Maybe, but you're still not going to get them to do something that they would not do for any other friend of theirs.

I do get it. But at the end of the day it's just a first level spell. It's functionality shouldn't be any better than slight healing, a little bit of damage and so on. The way you're describing it is as if it's much more than that. It's just a minor bit of influence at the end of the day. They used the words "friendly acquaintance" for a reason.

Let's look at 1st level spells. And cantrips, too. All the damage-dealing spells are capable of instakilling the majority of people in the world (since the majority of people are going to be in the CR 1/2 or lower bracket). You can even use the very fires of hell (hellish rebuke) or alter one of the fundamental forces of nature (magnify gravity) to kill people. Even the damage-dealing cantrips can instakill a commoner.

1st-level healing spells can bring most people back from even grievous injury. These spells can animate and control plants. They can allow you to speak with animals. They can create the most important substance in the world out of nothingness (create and destroy water). They can bring forth the literal blessings of the gods (guidance, resistance, bless). They can ensure that food is available (goodberry) and safe to eat (purify food at drink). They can keep a person safe from attacks by demons and other unnatural monsters (protection from evil and good). They can create localized earthquakes (earth tremor). They can summon spirits and give them form (find familiar). They can transfix people (color spray) or outright force them to perform a specific action (command). And they can make people see or hear things that aren't there (minor illusion, silent image) or cause objects to seem they're better than they really are (distort value).

I'd say making someone act like a friend for an hour is well within the boundaries of what's acceptable for a 1st-level spell. Especially since the person will know you've charmed them afterwards (not so for the 2nd-level suggestion, which lasts for eight hours, not just one) and you still have to make social rolls.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I invoke and use my Strength attribute every time I swing a melee weapon; I add the bonus it gives me to my roll, though I could choose not to.

I invoke and use my Dexterity attribute every time I try to dodge a blow; I add the bonus it gives me to my AC, though I could choose not to.

I don't get to invoke and use my own skills, though. The DM decides which one(s) I get to use, and when I get to use them. Big difference.

Ah. I misunderstood the question. This is really about that funny thing you have about only having things on the character sheet that the player controls, isn't it? Sorry can't help you with that one; wrong game system.