D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?
- Thread starter darjr
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We don't need to debate spell power for a casual group though. If they are casual, then pretty much no spell is OP. They will just fling some spells without really abusing anything.
It is only with more serious groups that spell power debate is even relevant.
That white dragon's breath weapon will do 27 points of damage on average even if you make your save. And good luck making a DC 19 con save as a 4th level wizard.
But obviously that monster is designed to crush a 4th level character, it is CR 13 after all. How about a hill giant, a more appropriate CR 5? The rock attack will on average do 21.5 damage....just a hair below the 22 needed to kill you. Meaning even a slightly above average roll, and the character is dead. And custom monsters?.... a standard CR3 custom monster's guideline does enough damage on a single attack to kill you (21-26)
I respect that you may have played low level games and no ones died....but if we look at the math there are plenty of reasonable cases where characters below 5th level can get creamed with a single attack if they are at low hp. Its only at 5th level+ where the amount of damage in one attack becomes high enough where such scenarios truly become very very unlikely.
No. It is a bonus action, not an action. This presumes you were going to cast a leveled spell as an action and does not account for the action of the guy you just brought back.
To evaluate this you would need to weigh the opportunity cost of losing a leveled spell as your action minus the cost of the character dieing and compare this to the value of a non-spell action PLUS the value of the action for the character you just brought back PLUS the value of the action lost by the enemy to attack him again and put him down again.
It is going to be VERY rare that the calculus and statistics favor casting a leveled offensive spell over healing word
Not sure I agree, the discussion is just different.
In a "casual" group the power of Sleep (at low level) will be blatantly apparent. The +5 provided by shield, equally so.
Because this spell requires a combo effect, and a not necessarily obvious - there is more system mastery involved in making it work -so the debate on power level ALSO depends on the knowledge level of the group. But the more knowledgeable the group the likelier the DM is throwing them curveballs and knucklers - so that impacts too.
Again, I'll have to see this in play to accurately judge (or in the absence of my players taking it, it's not their kind of spell, at least see some actual play accounts). But my initial impression is that, while the spell can be used to good effect it won't be overpowering.
Easy example. The downed character is a melee fighter 30 feet away from the monster. Bringing them back up will provide no offense, as they can only stand from prone, grab their sword, and move 15 more feet closer.
Compare that to getting off a spirit guardians or taking the monster out with a banishment or something.
Unless the fighter is a ranged specialist (sharpshooter crossbow expert anyone?) in which case he's positioned perfectly.
Sure...in which case than healing word is absolutely the right spell to use. The argument was that it would be VERY RARE that healing word was not the best spell to use, and so I countered with a very reasonable example.
My argument though is not that silvery barbs trumps all other spells all the time. That is not the definition of OP to me (though a spell that did would certainly be OP). For me, an OP spell grants a significant boost in power beyond the normal power curve, that its existance makes the spellcaster a much stronger threat than they were before. If I could cast meteor swarm as a 1st level spell....there would still be cases where healing word would be a good option (such as a fire immune creature for example). That doesn't stop the meteor swarm slinging wizard from being insanely OP
This spell is on my radar because of that definition. This spell means that a wizard is much more likely to land crippling control spells on monsters, its existence makes a whole slew of spells more powerful. This spell means that one player is much less likely to be affected by something nasty. And it's at the cheap cost of a 1st level spell with no concentration.
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abirdcall
(she/her)
If the argument is that Barbs isn't good when used to duplicate a spell that targeted the creature's strong save then we're also saying that spell or ability isn't good. It's not the spell that was bad though, it was the way it was used. The argument I'm hearing here is that Barbs isn't a guarantee but neither is the original ability or spell that triggered the save in the first place and yet those can still be considered good even when they rely on a saving throw.
Healing Word can also be used on characters whenever they have suffered any amount of damage. But that's not what the conversation is about when we're talking about it. The conversation is always about using it to recover a character from 0. I've never seen anyone respond to that conversation with 'but it isn't as powerful when restoring HP to a character who still has 80% of their HP left.'
Barbs is balanced when used against attack rolls but that doesn't mean it is a balanced spell. I wouldn't be surprised if the balancing was originally for attack rolls and then ability checks and saving throws were added later.
Sure, slightly above average, if he hits, but if the wizard has not gone yet that attack is at disadvantage because he is prone and if he has gone he should probably get prone if the Giant is throwing rocks. So he has to hit with disadvantage and then he has to do slightly above average damage.
I am not saying it can't happen but it is not easy.
On the other hand if you don't cast healing word and he walks up and bashes him with his tree from 5 feet away he needs 2 hits with advantage to deal 4 failed death saves and kill him outright. If he can't get within 5 feet he can still throw a rock and cause a failed death save and if you did not cast healing word the giant does not have disadvantage because the character is unconcious and that cancels the disadvantage from prone.
Oh I have had characters die, and as a DM I have killed even more, but it is almost always from death saves (either failed or inflicted), not massive damage.
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