D&D 5E Is Rime's Binding Ice OP?

I feel like a bonehead for misreading it. I agree with this for the most part, it still is a strong for a 2nd level spell I think.

I have always thought HP is underpowered for a 3rd level spell compared to other control spells (especially Fear) mostly because it is canceled with damage. I think HP would make more sense as a 2nd level spell and compare pretty evenly with RBI if it was.

HP - no damage but better effect, concentration, need another to free, freed by damage, cant use on creatures with charm immunity
RBI - Good damage, weaker effect, no concentration, can free yourself, not freed by damage, works on creatures with charm immunity

I'll agree with @Blue . HP is a top tier 3rd level spell. The key is 1) decent area of effect 2) only 1 save and if failed monster is out until it takes damage (or concentration is blown) - this allows for REALLY good control because you can focus on just a small number of creatures at a time.

Next a sorcerer or evoker wizard can REALLY maximize it because the spell suddenly becomes party friendly!

Plus I had a bard with an instrument of the bards - paired with this spell ALL targets save at disadvantage.

I'd rate Hypnotic Pattern higher than fireball under most situations.
 

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I'll agree with @Blue . HP is a top tier 3rd level spell. The key is 1) decent area of effect 2) only 1 save and if failed monster is out until it takes damage (or concentration is blown) - this allows for REALLY good control because you can focus on just a small number of creatures at a time.

Next a sorcerer or evoker wizard can REALLY maximize it because the spell suddenly becomes party friendly!

Plus I had a bard with an instrument of the bards - paired with this spell ALL targets save at disadvantage.

I'd rate Hypnotic Pattern higher than fireball under most situations.
Fear does everything HP does, but does it better (use with IOB notwithstanding) ..... and right after you cast Fear the sorcerer in the party can Fireball the frightened enemies and they are still running away. :-P

Fireball is great as far as damage spells go, and while I would rate it better than HP, I would not rate it better than most good 3rd level spells. My top wizard spells in 3rd level are in no particular order Haste, Fly, Leomunds tiny Hut, Summon Fey, Counterspell and Fear.
 

Fear does everything HP does, but does it better (use with IOB notwithstanding) ..... and right after you cast Fear the sorcerer in the party can Fireball the frightened enemies and they are still running away. :p
I don't see that at all. Let's compare.

Range: right off the bat, HP is MUCH better 120' range, then affects a 30' cube. Fear is self and then a 30' cone. So with fear you need to be right next to the targets. That's a bad place for most casters. Plus if your flanked, fear will only get one side unless you can get lucky on positioning.

Components: this is minor, but while Fear is VSM HP is only SM - one of the very few spells with no verbal component. Minor, but it's a plus.

Effect:

With Fear affected creatures MUST Dash away from the caster and get the frightened condition. So they might get hit by opportunity attacks and get disadvantage on attacks and ability checks (but NOT saving throws). While the targets have to retreat they can still attack both the caster and other party members, they're still an imminent threat! Plus if the target loses sight of the caster - it gets a save. Crucially the caster gets no control on where the target moves other than "away."

with Hypnotic Pattern: much more straight forward - if the target fails a save it's incapacitated with a speed of 0. This means what it's cast, the party can then focus fire on (ideally) one opponent at a time, this is huge. Even if multiple targets save, you still only have to deal with the ones that do, that's as good control as it gets.

In play I've seen fear used and it was ok. I've seen HP used to devastating effect by different groups and with multiple DMs.
 

Range: right off the bat, HP is MUCH better 120' range, then affects a 30' cube. Fear is self and then a 30' cone. Plus if your flanked, fear will only get one side unless you can get lucky on positioning.
The range is better on HP, agreed. The AOE is awash, while HP is larger it is also more difficult to position without hitting allies.

Flanked is bad for both. Yes you can technically hit flanking enemies with HP but then you hit yourself as well since you are between them. If you fail your save the spell fails completely as you lose concentration on it. With either spell I think the way you are normally going to deal with flanking enemies is move take an AOO and then hit them both.

While the targets have to retreat they can still attack both the caster and other party members
No they can't. They have to take the "dash action", so they can not take the attack action or any other action except dash. They can use bonus actions and reactions but the options to attack with those are very, very limited.

Plus if the target loses sight of the caster - it gets a save.
To be clear it gets a save at the end of the turn if out of LOS, not when it breaks LOS. At that point they have moved 2X movement away from the caster. If they manage this and make the save on the first turn they will need to take dash again on the next turn just to get back to where they were before it was cast and if they are humanoids they come back into the fight without their weapons, wands, shields or whatever else they were holding. If they don't save they keep running at twice movement until they do, even after line of sight is broken. Unless they hit a dead end, this takes them further and further from the fight every turn they are affected.

You also do have some control over where they run because they have to move away as long as there is somewhere to go and because of the frightened condition they can't move closer to you. So you can position yourself to force "away" to be in a certain direction. For example you open the door to a dead end room and cast fear into it. If you then move to the other side of the room, they have to run through the door you entered, even if it means going by all the other party members, because it is the only direction to go. On the other hand if you do not want them going through the door and want to trap them you can stand between them and the door and they can't approach it because they have the frightened condition and can't move closer to you. If you have something like misty step you can act like a herding dog and make them run back and forth in one direction then the other, running by all your party members and sucking up AOOs every turn. It just really depends on how open it is. A hallway or dungeon you have a lot of control, and full control if you can get to the other side of them on your turn. In an open area you have limited control, you can basically keep them from running in one direction, unless your move is high enough to herd them in a certain direction.


This means what it's cast, the party can then focus fire on (ideally) one opponent at a time, this is huge. Even if multiple targets save, you still only have to deal with the ones that do, that's as good control as it gets.

Not really. First, they can use an action to wake them up and if the incapacitated enemy goes after or at the same time as the awake enemy the guy that was charmed does not even lose a single turn. If you fail to get at least half of them, it will often only result in a single lost action for the ones who MADE their save as they use their action to wake their buddies who go on to attack.

Second if the caster loses concentration they all wake up immediately. If the caster loses concentration in Fear they can all turn around and attack (without their weapons) but often they are hundreds of feet away by that time and will need one or more turns just to get back to where the fight is happening.

The problem I have run into with HP is you need to get all of them for it to be really effective for more than a turn or two. Even if there is just one enemy that saves; he uses his action to wake his buddy who goes next in initiative, his buddy is no longer incapacitated and uses his action to wake the next guy, he uses his action to wake the next guy ...... In 1 round they are all back in the fight and as long as just ONE enemy saves they can do this unless movement restrictions prevent it.

With Fear it is usually going to affect those who fail for a long time, often for a while even after it ends as they are so far away. If it is a closed off area and they can't run, then yes they won't have far to go, but in that case they don't get a save either, they need you to lose concentration or a minute to expire before they can start fighting again (without their weapons).

In play I've seen fear used and it was ok. I've seen HP used to devastating effect by different groups and with multiple DMs.

I have seen exactly the opposite with multiple DMs and at my table. I have seen Fear regularly dramatically change a battle where HP puts a few guys down for a turn or two.

One difference you didn't touch on is the drop effect you get from Fear. With a lot of enemies that means even when they get the opportunity to come back in the fight, they are now unarmed and far away from where they dropped their weapons. If they use natural weapons or if they have a backup on them that might not be a big deal. But if not they are severely nerfed even if they come back.

Maybe different DM styles, but if your DM was letting enemies hit by Fear take extra actions in addition to the dash action then that would explain why fear was not as effective.
 
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It's a good spell and almost a straight up side grade for shatter so it probably fine. Oddly a decent single target spell as a potential action denial type spell but mind whip is probably better for that and scales better.
I tend to rate action denial pretty high up as debuffs go and for some parties this could destroy encounters but so could PWaT or spike growth.
 

The problem I have run into with HP is you need to get all of them for it to be really effective for more than a turn or two. Even if there is just one enemy that saves; he uses his action to wake his buddy who goes next in initiative, his buddy is no longer incapacitated and uses his action to wake the next guy, he uses his action to wake the next guy ...... In 1 round they are all back in the fight and as long as just ONE enemy saves they can do this unless movement restrictions prevent it.
This sounds to me like the DM is severely gimping Hypnotic Pattern. If most encounters are with 1 (or 2) groups of baddies and initiative is rolled for the entire group(s), the action to wake their buddies takes most of the round. That should not leave enough time in the same round for the now awakened buddy to then use an action to wake the next guy, etc, in a domino effect. Those newly awakened baddies should need to wait until the start of their turn in initiative to take an action. Right?
 


This sounds to me like the DM is severely gimping Hypnotic Pattern. If most encounters are with 1 (or 2) groups of baddies and initiative is rolled for the entire group(s), the action to wake their buddies takes most of the round. That should not leave enough time in the same round for the now awakened buddy to then use an action to wake the next guy, etc, in a domino effect. Those newly awakened baddies should need to wait until the start of their turn in initiative to take an action. Right?
While group initiative is used to simplify, initiaitive is still sequential - the creatures that use group initiative should go sequentially.

HOWEVER, as a DM, I do not let NPCs use fine knowledge of the initiative order to their advantage unless they are meant to be amazngly skilled combatants. Instead if a Hy[pnotic Pattern is cast and 7 of 8 monsters fail their save, and the 8th is smart enough to shake awake their allies, they'll generally choose a random creature around them to awaken - even if the creature has already gone in the round and it will be nearly a full round until they go again. I do let PCs think about initiative order, but not the NPCs.
 

This sounds to me like the DM is severely gimping Hypnotic Pattern. If most encounters are with 1 (or 2) groups of baddies and initiative is rolled for the entire group(s), the action to wake their buddies takes most of the round. That should not leave enough time in the same round for the now awakened buddy to then use an action to wake the next guy, etc, in a domino effect. Those newly awakened baddies should need to wait until the start of their turn in initiative to take an action. Right?
No it doesn't. It is 1 action to wake them. Rolling initiative in groups and not specifying an order means they all get their action on the turn they are woken up. If I wake an ally up, that ally gets to go on his turn. If his turn is the same as my turn that means he goes now.

If you are not allowing people to wake allies with an action then you are not using the spell as written. This works both ways, and if the spell is used against the party, that is exactly what they are going to do as well.

As a very extreme example, lets say you have 15 bad guys and 14 fail and 1 makes his save. only Bad guy #7 saves. Let's say the party is four (a fighter a Rogue, a Wizard, a cleric).

Initiative order
Wizard
BG1
BG2
BG3
BG4
BG5
BG6
BG7 (This is the only guy that saves)
BG8
BG9
BG10
BG11
BG12
BG13
BG14
BG15
Rogue
Fighter
Cleric


In this example the wizard goes first and downs 14 of the 15 bad guys with HP.
BG1-BG6 are incpacitated and lose their turn.
BG7 uses his action to wake BG8
BG8 is now awake and can go on his turn. He uses his action to wake BG9
BG9 uses his action to wake BG10 .
BG10 uses his action to wake BG11
BG11 uses his action to wake BG12
BG12 uses his action to wake BG13
BG13 uses his action to wake BG14
BG14 uses his action to wake BG 15
BG15 uses his action to wake BG1
Rouge goes
Fighter goes
Cleric goes.

The first turn is over and there are only 5 bad guys that are still charmed. 8 of the 14 that failed their save are back before the first round is even over. The next round the remaining 5 will be woken up, meaning this lasted less than a single round for 9 of those that failed their save and a round and a half for the other 5 that failed.

That is not gimping the spell it is RAW. AND it is assuming a whopping 93% failed their save. Now movement and other restrictions will probably make it so a few more might not get woken up but it also assumes the Rouge, fighter and the cleric did not damage any that were down enabling a save and it also assumes you were extremely lucky. Get only 9 of 15 and not only are they all back the first turn, some of them that were charmed are probably making attacks on the first turn.

Now that is not to say it did not do anything. There are 21 actions lost waking people up in the exampe I gave, but that is far less than if Fear hit 14 of 15. With Fear would lose 28 actions minimum in the first 2 turns in that example.

This was an extreme example, but in a more realistic example, where you down say 3 of 5 they are all going to back in the fight the 2nd turn.
 
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While group initiative is used to simplify, initiaitive is still sequential - the creatures that use group initiative should go sequentially.

HOWEVER, as a DM, I do not let NPCs use fine knowledge of the initiative order to their advantage unless they are meant to be amazngly skilled combatants. Instead if a Hy[pnotic Pattern is cast and 7 of 8 monsters fail their save, and the 8th is smart enough to shake awake their allies, they'll generally choose a random creature around them to awaken - even if the creature has already gone in the round and it will be nearly a full round until they go again. I do let PCs think about initiative order, but not the NPCs.

The party uses initiative order to make decisions, so I think it is necessary to enable enemies to do the same and they more or less have to if they are going to use ready action or do anything in terms of movement and battlefield control. If I move now, I have to know my ally goes later to make any decisions. I don't think this is any differeny.

Even if you randomly choose and pick someone that goes before you then that means that person will be going early the next round. They will all be back in the up by the second round most of the time unless you use an extreme example like I did above with a preposterous number failing.

In a more realistic example - if 3 of 5 fail their initiative and their turn order is unknown they will still all be up to start the second turn roughly 70% of the time, movement restrictions notwithstanding.
 
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