D&D 5E Is Rime's Binding Ice OP?

[Swarmkeeper]

No it doesnt.
As an extreme example, lets say you have 15 bad guys and 14 fail and 1 makes his save. only Bad guy #7 saves. Let's say the party is four( afighter a Rogue, a Wizard, A cleric.

Initiative order
Wizard
BG1
BG2
BG3
Rogue
BG4
BG5
BG6
BG7 (This is the only guy that saves)
BG8
BG9
BG10
BG11
BG12
BG13
Fighter
BG14
BG15
Cleric


In this example the wizard goes first and downs 14 of the 15 bad guys with HP. BG1-BG3 are incpacitated and lose their turn.
The rogue goes.
BG4-BG6 lose their turn. Then it starts
BG7 uses his action to wake BG8
BG8 is now awake and can go on his turn. He uses his action to wake BG9
BG9 uses his action to wake BG10 .
BG10 uses his action to wake BG11
BG11 uses his action to wake BG12
BG12 uses his action to wake BG13
The Fighter goes
BG13 uses his action to wake BG14
BG14 uses his action to wake BG 15
BG15 uses his action to wake BG1
Cleric goes.

The first turn is over and there are only 5 bad guys that are still charmed. 8 of the 14 that failed their save are back before the first round is even over. The next round the remaining 5 will be woken up, meaning this lasted less than a single round for 9 of those that failed their save and a round and a half for the other 5 that failed.

That is not gimping the spell it is RAW. AND it is assuming a whopping 93% failed their save. Now movement and other restrictions will probably make it so a few more might not get woken up but it also assumes the Rouge, fighter and the cleric did not damage any that were down enabling a save and it also assumes you were extremely lucky. Get only 9 of 15 and not only are they all back the first turn, some of them that were charmed are probably making attacks on the first turn.

Now that is not to say it did not do anything. There are 21 actions lost waking people up in the exampe I gave, but that is far less than if Fear hit 14 of 15. They would lost 28 actions minimum in the first 2 turns in that example.

Do you agree a round in D&D is 6 seconds?
Do you agree an action takes most of that 6 seconds?
And that theoretically everyone is acting simultaneously but we need to abstract it into "turns" to actually play the game in real time without complete IRL chaos?
So maybe the 1st baddy shaken awake might get an action - but the 2nd, 3rd, etc?
I mean, I get that time in combat is an abstraction, but if you are going operating the assumption that one full round is 6 seconds what you outline above just cannot logistically happen. Hence my conclusion that the DM is gimping Hypnotic Pattern

 

[Mort]

Do you agree a round in D&D is 6 seconds?
Do you agree an action takes most of that 6 seconds?
And that theoretically everyone is acting simultaneously but we need to abstract it into "turns" to actually play the game in real time without complete IRL chaos?
So maybe the 1st baddy shaken awake might get an action - but the 2nd, 3rd, etc?
I mean, I get that time in combat is an abstraction, but if you are going operating the assumption that one full round is 6 seconds what you outline above just cannot logistically happen. Hence my conclusion that the DM is gimping Hypnotic Pattern

You have to do it the way you're suggesting. In that the creature that saved can use his action to wake another one, but that one recovers on his turn and can't act on it.

If you allow it the way @ECMO3 is suggesting (allowing each one to wake up and then wake another one) you get things like the The peasant railgun.

Edit: Obviously this is with group initiative. Individual initiative will work differently and better for this instance. But it's extremely clunky for large groups of monsters.

 

[ECMO3]

Do you agree a round in D&D is 6 seconds?
Do you agree an action takes most of that 6 seconds?
And that theoretically everyone is acting simultaneously but we need to abstract it into "turns" to actually play the game in real time without complete IRL chaos?
So maybe the 1st baddy shaken awake might get an action - but the 2nd, 3rd, etc?
I mean, I get that time in combat is an abstraction, but if you are going operating the assumption that one full round is 6 seconds what you outline above just cannot logistically happen. Hence my conclusion that the DM is gimping Hypnotic Pattern

The rules state it is one action to wake someone from HP and once that happens the person is no longer charmed. If he is not charmed by the spell and it makes it to his turn he can use his action. Those are the rules.

Do I believe I could be shaken free and then shake someone else free etc, etc. Yes I do, especially when we are talking about magic. You go running past him and slap him on the butt.

Answer me this, if you use sequential initiative how is it supposed to work? As a point of fact if you wake someone who goes after you in the initiative order, according to the rules, what happens next? How long is it before he can use his action?

Just like 15 different enemies can move in and out and attack the same character in that 6 seconds. Let's say you are standing in an open doorway and there are 15 enemies in the room. One after another they can close with you and hit you with a sword (maybe twice with multiattack) and then back up to make room for another one to go in and do the same thing.

That is the way the game works, sure you can homebrew it to work differently, but that is not RAW.

 

[Mort]

The rules state it is one action to wake someone from HP.

Do I believe I coiuld be shaken free and then shake someone else free etc, etc. Yes I do, especially when we are talking about magic. You go running past him and slap him on the butt. Just like 15 different enemies can move in and out and attack the same character in that 6 seconds.

Answer me this, if you use sequential initiative how is it supposed to work? As a point of fact if you wake someone who goes after you in the initiative order, according to the rules, what happens next?

Forgetting everything else, you're making the assumption that every monster knows to hit their ally to snap them out of HP. These guys aren't asleep they're staring into thin air mesmerized. Some creatures familiar with magic might know, but it shouldn't be ubiquitous unless there is a very good in world reason.

Remember these guys are being directly threatened with death by the party. They're not going to smack their ally unless they know it will work! Most are more likely to attack the direct threat.

 

[ECMO3]

You have to do it the way you're suggesting. In that the creature that saved can use his action to wake another one, but that one recovers on his turn and can't act on it.

That is homebrew, there is nothing in the spell that says that. Once the effect ends for him he can go on his next turn. If not it would say this in the description, that it takes a turn to shake it off .... like it does in the spell Haste for example.

Not only that, he can actually use a reaction between when he is awakened and when his turn begins.

If you are using some homebrew rule that it takes a turn to shake off the effect then the spell is a lot more powerful than written.

 

[ECMO3]

Forgetting everything else, you're making the assumption that every monster knows to hit their ally to snap them out of HP. These guys aren't asleep they're staring into thin air mesmerized. Some creatures familiar with magic might know, but it shouldn't be ubiquitous unless there is a very good in world reason.

Remember these guys are being directly threatened with death by the party. They're not going to smack their ally unless they know it will work! Most are more likely to attack the direct threat.

I think a lot of them are going to wake their allies. It is a pretty natural reaction to someone being dazed. If it cast on the party they are too, and not just the casters and "magic smart".

The spell is not useless, every action they use to wake someone up is a lost action, but it is not nearly as effective as Fear, especially when it comes to keeping enemies from fighting. If you get 3 people, they will lose 3 actions minimum (assuming you don't damage them or lose concentration). More than 3 if they can't get to them and wake them in the first turn.

This is besides the point though, if you cast fear they can't use actions, regardless of who tries shakes them out of it or who damages them. They must drop what they are holding and take dash to run away. If they can't run away they can't get out of the effect or take actions until the spell ends. If they break LOS after fleeing away they get a save at the end of their turn and a chance to dash back to the fight on their next turn without their weapons on following turns.

 

[Mort]

That is homebrew, there is nothing in the spell that says that. If an affect ends he can go on his next turn.

Not only that, he can use a reaction between when he is awaken and when his turn begins.

If you are using some homebrew rule that it takes a turn to shake off the effect then the spell is a lot more powerful than written.

So you allow the peasant railgun?

 

[Mort]

I think a lot of them are going to wake their allies. It is a pretty natural reaction, magic aside.

This is besides the point though, if you cast fear they can't use actions, regardless of who tries shakes them out of it or who damages them. They must drop what they are holding and take dash to run away. If they can't run away they can't get out of it until the spell ends. If they break LOS after fleeing away they get a save at the end of their turn and a chance to dash back to the fight without their weapons on following turns.

Sure, but this causes the group to lose control of the situation. Who knows where the targets run to! You're not eliminating the threat, you may even be amplifying it.

And if they can't run (cornered) they can fight (at a reduced capacity, but still).

I just don't consider a spell that's so chaotic and uncontrollable a favorable option

 

[ECMO3]

So you allow the peasant railgun?

It is RAW .... although the first one dies from the AOO.

Keep in mind this is an extreme example used for illustration. A more likely scenario is 4 failed their save and 2 didn't.

 

[ECMO3]

Sure, but this causes the group to lose control of the situation. Who knows where the targets run to! You're not eliminating the threat, you may even be amplifying it.

And if they can't run (cornered) they can fight (at a reduced capacity, but still).

I just don't consider a spell that's so chaotic and uncontrollable a favorable option

Perhaps, perhaps not. That is entirely situational. IF they are going to run into somewhere and raise the alarm sure, and then you don't use it. If you are defending the keep and they are just going to run away no, it is always better to have them running. If the alarm has already been raised and you are outnumbered and outgunned and you are trying to get away then no as well.

They can not fight with actions even if cornered because they have to take the dash action as their action. If they are cornered they can fight with reactions and bonus actions and I suppose legendary actions if they have them. They could conceivably do that whill running away too, but they typically will not be in range to do that for long.