D&D 5E Using social skills on other PCs

[Charlaquin]

My sentiment exactly. If there's no mechanical enforcement, why doesn't the DM just narrate as they see fit?

I do have one quibble with the dialog, though:


I would not narrate that way, because it is telling the player what their character's experience is. I would just narrate what the NPC actually does.

I try really hard to keep the character's experience out of the narrative, and restrict myself to describing the environment.

Instead of "You see..." I try to say, "There is..."
Instead of "You feel the sun shine on your face" I try to say, "The warm sun shines down"
Instead of "He startles you with his sudden appearance" I say "He springs out of nowhere"

I still slip up a lot...it's hard to remember to do this. But I'm still practicing.

I agree, but to be fair, I get not wanting to get terribly specific about what the NPC is doing to try to seduce the PC. I frequently play D&D with my best friend since high school, my partner’s sibling, and my parents. So while I would try to use different phrasing than @clearstream did in the example, I think this is a case where keeping it pretty abstract is probably for the best.

 

[Lanefan]

Well, refraining from telling the players what their characters are or aren’t certain of is kind of the point.

Yes, which is why "seems" or "appears to be" or similar is going to show up in a high percentage of my narrations.

In a world with illusions, secret doors, invisibility, robes of blending, and a whole bunch of other stuff that sometimes makes perception and actuality very different things, a degree of uncertainty in narration is always the point.

 

[Maxperson]

Instead of "You see..." I try to say, "There is..."
Instead of "You feel the sun shine on your face" I try to say, "The warm sun shines down"
Instead of "He startles you with his sudden appearance" I say "He springs out of nowhere"

I still slip up a lot...it's hard to remember to do this. But I'm still practicing.

I don't mind the first two. Those things are physical and unless the PC is walking around with his eyes closed and enshrouded, he's going to see obvious things and feel the sun on his face. That's not the DM playing the character in my mind. The third one I try to avoid, because the PC being started or not is the province of the player. I might describe as you did, or even as "The assassin springs out from behind the rock in a startling manner(perhaps he threw his arms forward and yelled Boo!)."

 

[Bill Zebub]

Why remove "seems"?

What would you replace it with, to provide the same degree of never-quite-certainty?

Gimme an example of how a DM might describe the environment with "seems" and I'll try to propose an alternative.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I don't mind the first two. Those things are physical and unless the PC is walking around with his eyes closed and enshrouded, he's going to see obvious things and feel the sun on his face.

I understand that argument. But for me it's that I'm trying to build a habit of not describing the character's experience. It's hard to make something habitual when you cut corners when it doesn't seem important.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't mind the first two. Those things are physical and unless the PC is walking around with his eyes closed and enshrouded, he's going to see obvious things and feel the sun on his face. That's not the DM playing the character in my mind. The third one I try to avoid, because the PC being started or not is the province of the player. I might describe as you did, or even as "The assassin springs out from behind the rock in a startling manner(perhaps he threw his arms forward and yelled Boo!)."

I agree that “you see” and “you feel” don’t intrude on player agency, but I find the alternatives stylistically preferable, and I find avoiding using second person narration at all helps break the habit of relying on it.

 

[Lanefan]

Gimme an example of how a DM might describe the environment with "seems" and I'll try to propose an alternative.

Scenario: the PCs have just opened a door.

Players: We look beyond the door.

DM: This dark 20x20 foot room seems to be empty other than dust and a few cobwebs. There do not appear to be any exits other than the door you have just opened and are looking through.

 

[Charlaquin]

Scenario: the PCs have just opened a door.

Players: We look beyond the door.

DM: This dark 20x20 foot room seems to be empty other than dust and a few cobwebs. There do not appear to be any exits other than the door you have just opened and are looking through.

A thin layer of dust covers covers this otherwise empty, unlit room. A few cobwebs cling to the bare walls. No other exits are visible.

 

[Lanefan]

A thin layer of dust covers covers this otherwise empty, unlit room. A few cobwebs cling to the bare walls. No other exits are visible.

Too certain. Too definite. Not enough seeds of doubt.

 

[Maxperson]

Too certain. Too definite. Not enough seeds of doubt.

I don't see a difference. "seems empty" and "no exits are visible" are equally vague to me. Both tell me that I don't see any other exists, but there might be something hidden if I look.