D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

[Gammadoodler]

Erm.... Okay. Let's take a look.

I listed the sort of things I was thinking in the post above. I didn't list them originally as I didn't think we were going to get down to minutia as I thought this was a pretty hand wavy kind of discussion. But yes, I did assume some basic magic items for an epic level character. This might not be appropriate for some super low magic item settings I guess.

I also wouldn't expect an entire army to be fitted out with chain & shield (that's very expensive) but again, I suppose it depends on the setting. Yours could be extraordinarily well supplied.

Most armies also don't call down ranged attacks on their own troops location just to try to hit one guy standing in the middle of hundreds of their own guys..... Again, I suppose your campaign setting could be unusual in this regard. They might be very bloodthirsty.

But honestly, we can tailor the example however we like, but given the infinite possibilities of campaign settings, character builds, and actual player-DM storytelling interactions, to me there is plenty of room for this legendary swordsman to be able to acquit himself well in this scenario (or versions of it).

What is your fundamental disagreement with this?

Sure, litigating any number of potential fictional scenarios is basically impossible.

My fundamental disagreement is that you've chosen something that I do think a high-level martial should be good at. And it is probably the scenario which is least suited to the abilities they receive....unless you prop them up with a host of magic items...and you assume that they are facing an army of commoners whose archers are unwilling to fire until all the commoners in front of them are dead.

And I didn't get into it before, but consider the comparison to the magic fighter who is supposed to be middling with the sword but with a little bit of magic.

No fancy magical equipment, matches the AC of our fully-kitted legendary swordsman with a first level spell (shield). Can impose non-stop disadvantage for a minute (greater invis), has area denial/damage capabilities in things like fireball and wall of flame.

Our spellcaster fighter is just...so...much...better for this, and it's not even the only thing they can be good at.

I realize that we haven't really given out "mundane" swordmaster a subclass, but I can't think of any that would even really come close in terms of either damage potential or survivability...and that sucks.

 

[tetrasodium]

Sure, litigating any number of potential fictional scenarios is basically impossible.

My fundamental disagreement is that you've chosen something that I do think a high-level martial should be good at. And it is probably the scenario which is least suited to the abilities they receive....unless you prop them up with a host of magic items...and you assume that they are facing an army of commoners whose archers are unwilling to fire until all the commoners in front of them are dead.

And I didn't get into it before, but consider the comparison to the magic fighter who is supposed to be middling with the sword but with a little bit of magic.

No fancy magical equipment, matches the AC of our fully-kitted legendary swordsman with a first level spell (shield). Can impose non-stop disadvantage for a minute (greater invis), has area denial/damage capabilities in things like fireball and wall of flame.

Our spellcaster fighter is just...so...much...better for this, and it's not even the only thing they can be good at.

I realize that we haven't really given out "mundane" swordmaster a subclass, but I can't think of any that would even really come close in terms of either damage potential or survivability...and that sucks.

d&d is a game positively swimming in magic items. If you want a game with an engine built for no magic items something like Modiphius's 2d20 conan system. Simply tuning the math to declare them "optional" as wotc did does not accomplish that goal because magic items are still expected as the laundry list of magic items that came out since 5e initially launched demonstrates. Martials realistically have more magic item options & choices relevant to their role & abilities within the group. That is flat out a benefit martials enjoy & you put an entire fist rather than just a thumb on the scale by pretending otherwise.

 

[Minigiant]

I agree with your premise but not your conclusion. Most of our traditional stories are low level, and from what I hear, most game campaigns are low level too. So I don't think there's a big dissonance there, hence I don't believe this is the "real issue".

To me the real issue is that it's easy to imagine what epic level magic is like, but it's a lot harder (ie takes more work on the part of the DM and the players) to imagine what equivalent level epic non-magic is like. Critical word in that sentence is "equivalent". Just b/c something takes more work, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

The two are really.
The reason why many people have trouble imagining what high level nonmagic is because American and European media doesn't go past what D&D calls the mid levels very often without using magic, racial powers, or high tech.

But this is not the same for everyone. Ask an anime/manga/manhua fan and there can rattle off a dozen swordsmen and master thieves/assassins who do amazing things without relliance of magic items as fuel. I could easily imagine the nonmagic equivalents of a Lich or Archmage.

 

[Asisreo]

People only like the idea of martials having out-of-combat features. In reality, if it's not combat related, it's seen as wasted. And the proof is that there's already utility features for martials that are unique and they're seen as wasteful.

Take a fighter. Look at the chassis, there's nothing. But Battlemasters have Know Your Enemy.

The ability to understand the meta-statistics of your enemy is something no other class can do. Spend 7 minutes talking to a character, you'll have a good understanding of what the enemy is. For example, if you know you're talking to a spellcaster, you can spend 1 minute interacting with them to know their highest level spells. You can also discern physical weaknesses, so knowing that a character has low constitution may be valuable to inform the monk. Again, no wizard nor cleric nor druid can do this.

Berserker's Intimidating Presence is misunderstood. It's a poor combat option, by far, but as an out-of-combat social option, it's amazing. It debuffs a creature from their perception checks, insight checks, stealth checks, and any other practical checks. This means your barbarian can easily be a distraction for your group while the rogue sneaks off or while the bard bluffs past guards.

The Assassin drives my point home. They can take 7 days to create an entirely different person to do whatever they want with as an identity. Yet it's seen as a wasteful feature. Why? Because of possible settings? Even though 99% of adventures probably do have a home-base style town/city.

So many utility features of martials are flat-out ignored in these discussions simply because they didn't add a +1 to the damage.

Monks can literally jump 60ft in the air, run up vertical walls up to 180ft tall, never die of old age, and literally turn invisible. This is without spells or magic, purely fantastical. But Monks are seen as weak because...they don't have par damage with rogues? Who can't even get close to doing this stuff?

 

[tetrasodium]

The two are really.
The reason why many people have trouble imagining what high level nonmagic is because American and European media doesn't go past what D&D calls the mid levels very often without using magic, racial powers, or high tech.

Both this is not the same for everyone. Ask an anime/manga/manhua fan and there can rattle off a dozen swordsmen and master thieves/assassins who do amazing things without relliance of magic items as fuel. I could easily imagine the nonmagic equivalents of a Lich or Archmage.

those other forms of media tend to treat everything as magical in some form even if the magic is some other flavor. For example...

Spoiler: A *pure caster* vrs a gish

Spoiler: This is that same caster 'battling a totally nonmagical fighter with some weak magical gear'

In the very first novel said caster tells that same fighter that he needs to find magic items that would protect him from the very thing he did there

The Premise of those light novels is that a max level MMO character gets stuck in game after the mmo shuts down & happens to be in this low level world, it's not just because he's a caster... he's just that far beyond everyone else in that world save for a few I don't think the anime introduced yet.

People pushing for the totally nonmagic martials want to rival on a caster at their peak like Ainz without magic items and ignore the impact of magic items d&d practically expects

 

[Gammadoodler]

d&d is a game positively swimming in magic items. If you want a game with an engine built for no magic items something like Modiphius's 2d20 conan system. Simply tuning the math to declare them "optional" as wotc did does not accomplish that goal because magic items are still expected as the laundry list of magic items that came out since 5e initially launched demonstrates. Martials realistically have more magic item options & choices relevant to their role & abilities within the group. That is flat out a benefit martials enjoy & you put an entire fist rather than just a thumb on the scale by pretending otherwise.

It really isn't. It's comparing class/subclass features to class/subclass features.. the things over which a player has agency and visibility.

"Someday you too might be able to do mythic, awesome things, if you can just get access to the right mythic awesome items..and hey you have very little control over the likelihood of that happening" is...

1. Unsatisfying
2. Unnecessary

The awesome stuff you need magic items to accomplish now could just be awesome features you have access to as part of your class.

 

[Minigiant]

those other forms of media tend to treat everything as magical in some form even if the magic is some other flavor. For example...

Spoiler: A *pure caster* vrs a gish

Spoiler: This is that same caster 'battling a totally nonmagical fighter with some weak magical gear'

In the very first novel said caster tells that same fighter that he needs to find magic items that would protect him from the very thing he did there

The Premise of those light novels is that a max level MMO character gets stuck in game after the mmo shuts down & happens to be in this low level world, it's not just because he's a caster... he's just that far beyond everyone else in that world save for a few I don't think the anime introduced yet.

People pushing for the totally nonmagic martials want to rival on a caster at their peak like Ainz without magic items and ignore the impact of magic items d&d practically expects

The impact of magic items expects varies. And a lot of magic items could beand often are just numerically enhancements of their trained abilities. Only 2 d&D classes have their movement speeds increase as they level. What's up with that?

And in some media,the power, speed, and hardiness of their nonmagical character's far exceeds that of even level 20 D&D nonmagical characters. D&D gatekeeps a lot of features to epic levels or magic items that other media doesn't.

A few months back, my party got TPKO by the DM's Dracule Mihawk inspired villain. My wizard got air-slashed into zero HP on turn 1 and froze all our henchmen with panic check. Then he pulled the "this is the smallest weapon I have one me" shtick and dueled our barbarian with a dagger. The D&D had a ton of houserule buffs for warrior and rogue types. My wizard struggled. Post level 5, dudes kept cutting physical barriers, eating death spells. and parrying attack spells.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

Sure, litigating any number of potential fictional scenarios is basically impossible.

Agreed. The only guiding light I can think of is that if the players and the DM are committed to making it happen then it can happen.

My fundamental disagreement is that you've chosen something that I do think a high-level martial should be good at.

I think that actually means we're in furious agreement then

And it is probably the scenario which is least suited to the abilities they receive....unless you prop them up with a host of magic items...and you assume that they are facing an army of commoners whose archers are unwilling to fire until all the commoners in front of them are dead.
<snip>
I realize that we haven't really given out "mundane" swordmaster a subclass, but I can't think of any that would even really come close in terms of either damage potential or survivability...and that sucks.

How about 18th level Champion ? They regen 9-10 hps per round if below half health, forever, with no resource expenditure. And if they're not taking more damage than that, their survivability becomes ... infinite ?

And I didn't get into it before, but consider the comparison to the magic fighter who is supposed to be middling with the sword but with a little bit of magic.

No fancy magical equipment, matches the AC of our fully-kitted legendary swordsman with a first level spell (shield). Can impose non-stop disadvantage for a minute (greater invis), has area denial/damage capabilities in things like fireball and wall of flame.

Our spellcaster fighter is just...so...much...better for this, and it's not even the only thing they can be good at.

They can't cast shield every round for 100 rounds. Or even 20 rounds, if they're an EK they'd be flat out doing it for 10. And if they're using all their slots casting shield then they're not using them for a whole bunch of other things.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

People only like the idea of martials having out-of-combat features. In reality, if it's not combat related, it's seen as wasted. And the proof is that there's already utility features for martials that are unique and they're seen as wasteful.

Take a fighter. Look at the chassis, there's nothing. But Battlemasters have Know Your Enemy.

The ability to understand the meta-statistics of your enemy is something no other class can do. Spend 7 minutes talking to a character, you'll have a good understanding of what the enemy is. For example, if you know you're talking to a spellcaster, you can spend 1 minute interacting with them to know their highest level spells. You can also discern physical weaknesses, so knowing that a character has low constitution may be valuable to inform the monk. Again, no wizard nor cleric nor druid can do this.

Berserker's Intimidating Presence is misunderstood. It's a poor combat option, by far, but as an out-of-combat social option, it's amazing. It debuffs a creature from their perception checks, insight checks, stealth checks, and any other practical checks. This means your barbarian can easily be a distraction for your group while the rogue sneaks off or while the bard bluffs past guards.

The Assassin drives my point home. They can take 7 days to create an entirely different person to do whatever they want with as an identity. Yet it's seen as a wasteful feature. Why? Because of possible settings? Even though 99% of adventures probably do have a home-base style town/city.

So many utility features of martials are flat-out ignored in these discussions simply because they didn't add a +1 to the damage.

Monks can literally jump 60ft in the air, run up vertical walls up to 180ft tall, never die of old age, and literally turn invisible. This is without spells or magic, purely fantastical. But Monks are seen as weak because...they don't have par damage with rogues? Who can't even get close to doing this stuff?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. All of those things seem awesome to me, so I'm not sure what the problem is ?

Are you saying non-magic martials are fine because they can already do these sorts of amazing non-magical things ?

With the exception of the monk, all the examples you gave are Level 7, 9 & 10 features, that's not even Tier 3, let alone Tier 4. So are you saying that there's plenty of awesome non-magic things they can do at Tier 2, but that this doesn't get extended through to Tier 3 & 4 ?

Or are you saying that these are a few examples but there should be way more ?

Or something else entirely ?

 

[Gammadoodler]

People only like the idea of martials having out-of-combat features. In reality, if it's not combat related, it's seen as wasted. And the proof is that there's already utility features for martials that are unique and they're seen as wasteful.

Take a fighter. Look at the chassis, there's nothing. But Battlemasters have Know Your Enemy.

The ability to understand the meta-statistics of your enemy is something no other class can do. Spend 7 minutes talking to a character, you'll have a good understanding of what the enemy is. For example, if you know you're talking to a spellcaster, you can spend 1 minute interacting with them to know their highest level spells. You can also discern physical weaknesses, so knowing that a character has low constitution may be valuable to inform the monk. Again, no wizard nor cleric nor druid can do this.

Berserker's Intimidating Presence is misunderstood. It's a poor combat option, by far, but as an out-of-combat social option, it's amazing. It debuffs a creature from their perception checks, insight checks, stealth checks, and any other practical checks. This means your barbarian can easily be a distraction for your group while the rogue sneaks off or while the bard bluffs past guards.

The Assassin drives my point home. They can take 7 days to create an entirely different person to do whatever they want with as an identity. Yet it's seen as a wasteful feature. Why? Because of possible settings? Even though 99% of adventures probably do have a home-base style town/city.

So many utility features of martials are flat-out ignored in these discussions simply because they didn't add a +1 to the damage.

Monks can literally jump 60ft in the air, run up vertical walls up to 180ft tall, never die of old age, and literally turn invisible. This is without spells or magic, purely fantastical. But Monks are seen as weak because...they don't have par damage with rogues? Who can't even get close to doing this stuff?

There are some interesting criticisms here some fair some less so. For example, i do think there are a number of ways in which monk abilities are underestimated.

That said, the main issue with the noncombat feats that are frequently included in the 5e martial classes is that, especially relative to spells, they are typically some combination of:

1. Slow.
- create a new identity...in a week of downtime.
2. Narrow
- frighten a single enemy within 30 feet of you, or you know about two stats relative to yours
3. Dysfunctional
- Your strong tough barbarian uses charisma as the attribute for their save, your dex/con/wis focused monk can now talk to anything.
4. Late
It takes an Assassin 9 levels to figure out effective document forgery in a presumably pseudo-medieval society without the internet. 10 levels for the hulking rage monster to learn how to scowl..badly
5. Likely irrelevant to most campaigns.
Unless you're playing a campaign modeled on Cocoon, or Benjamin Buttons, your character will basically never have to worry about old age, and if it is an issue, you'd probably just play an elf.

I don't know if people would still disregard these things if they were better..but they truly aren't very good even for their intended purposes.