D&D 5E Yes to factionalism. No to racism.

[Scribe]

I think this is a serious failure of logic in an otherwise reasonable post.

Many Evil people can absolutely be reasoned with or "see the alternatives". Unreasonable people cannot be reasoned with, and exist on all alignments. Being Evil doesn't make you stupid or illogical (despite 99% of the PC "Evil" dialogue options doing just that lol), it just means that you're absolutely willing to do horrible things to people in order to achieve your goals (which can include "for the lulz"), even if you don't absolutely have to and/or if they're "innocent".

Absolutely a Lawful Evil person could and quite likely would act identically to Halruun or whatever he's called. Particularly as he's absolutely willing to kill people who get in his way, even though the actual threat as he can explain it, seems to be minuscule at the point he's pursuing it, and there are tons of very real threats which he's ignoring to pursue some priests he doesn't like. Indeed, his obsession with the Desnans is somewhat irrational. You basically have to bully him into behaving like a decent human being. That's absolutely something you could do if he was LE. Hell, probably NE, given IIRC he essentially has to realize that you could kick his ass before he'll behave, and throws out all sort of dire threats before then.

This is one of the key issues with the writing in WotR, I'd say, which I think is partly the product of the specific adventure and some of the themes involved, rather than inherent to alignment systems - LE and LN can be very hard to distinguish from each other. Regill is LE and considerably more reasonable and flexible than Halruun, and possibly not even as malicious-seeming (I say seeming, I can't read the mind of either, but certainly Halruun seems more irrational, vengeful and rage-filled than Regill).

I should have said that he considers alternatives as just as acceptable, or...I dont know how to phrase what I'm saying.

An LE wouldnt agree to let the priests go.
An LE wouldnt be confused/confounded by the Light of Heaven, and back down.

Then again, I've just woken up and could just be wrong.

What I'm trying to get at, is that Law is more important than his own desire to enact what he sees as justice. We also find out later from another Inquisitor, that he is 'kept in check' by his more even tempered Inquisitors.

I just see his character as one who is certainly trending towards evil, but ISNT outright evil yet. I wonder if you can pull some kind of redemption arc, as he did show up in my city later, but I dont know.

That said, yes the writing is not without flaw.

 

[Scott Christian]

I find that whenever we discuss factions or even group alignments, people use modern contexts. Very few choose to use more ancient contexts: travel more than fifty miles from home as rare, news being transcribed and inaccurate, superstition layered into daily life. And then even fewer seem to use D&D's fantasy context. I mean, if a faction is starving and the Pelor clerics come around and start casting create food and water for them - it might be a very big deal.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I should have said that he considers alternatives as just as acceptable, or...I dont know how to phrase what I'm saying.

An LE wouldnt agree to let the priests go.
An LE wouldnt be confused/confounded by the Light of Heaven, and back down.

Then again, I've just woken up and could just be wrong.

I mean, I'm not saying your definitely wrong, but I've restarted a number of times and talked to that guy a bunch and I don't think ever considers any alternative to "KILL EM" as remotely "as acceptable" as "KILL EM". To me it looks like he has one idea for what he wants to do, and only if you actively prevent him from being able to do it does he not. You can't IIRC, just "talk him down". You need like a show of force and to make threats and stuff (I haven't played a Cleric/Paladin or LG yet though, maybe that works), and he doesn't go "Oh, yes, that's actually reasonable!" he goes "I still think we should kill em but I guess I won't this time. HMPH!". And indeed it's easy for him to decide to kill you too if you pick the wrong choices or roll poorly. Happened the first time I met him.

And I disagree strongly re: Light of Heaven. A NON-BELIEVER wouldn't be confused-confounded. But an LE believer (let's, for the sake of argument, say those exist) would absolutely be vexed by that. I mean we've seen this scene in animated movies or the like where the Evil Priest Guy is forced to confront what appears to be a miracle, and half the time they fall to their knees, the other half it's revealed they weren't actually believers, it was all a front.

Given the amount of threatening and cajoling you have to do to let him go I'm pretty sure an LE guy would do that too.

I'm not saying he is Evil. I'm saying there's not external way to differentiate him from an LE guy, especially with peeps like Regill around, who are superficially more reasonable.

 

[Oofta]

Another problem that I have with factions is the assumption that people choose to join them. Meh. Maybe, maybe not even if they were not conscripted.

Trying to stay away from real world politics too much, but most people who are religious follow the same religion they were raised in. If I was born in Minnesota and my parents were fans of the Vikings I'm probably going to be a fan of the Vikings if I follow (American) football. A Vikings fan may be a fan of an individual player on another team, but they're probably not going to suddenly become a fan of the Packers.

So if you look at religions as a valid faction the majority of people don't really choose, they're born into it. This is even more true in the day and age before modern communication. If you were born into a community that worshipped Pelor, you probably worship Pelor and all other gods aren't even a consideration*.

It's also true for what country you fight for, who you consider your enemy, standing on various issues such as personal rights versus societal rights, on and on. Even things like slavery. If you grew up in a culture where slavery was the norm, IMHO whether an individual fights to abolish slavery should not be a litmus test for whether someone is good or evil. Sadly, when I was growing up I was taught that many slaves were well cared for and relatively happy (small town, older teacher). If that was the only message I heard my entire life, my opinion on the subject may have been misguided.

But again, the game doesn't need to model real world morality. I don't think it should even try to do so as the base core assumption.

P.S. If you don't think sports fans are religious about what teams they follow I'm sure you could find some youtube videos that seem to prove otherwise.

*In the real world most polytheistic religions didn't really have a single god that they worshipped, although some like the Greeks had patron deities for their city. Worshipping a single deity out of many wasn't normally a thing.

 

[Scribe]

And I disagree strongly re: Light of Heaven. A NON-BELIEVER wouldn't be confused-confounded. But an LE believer (let's, for the sake of argument, say those exist) would absolutely be vexed by that. I mean we've seen this scene in animated movies or the like where the Evil Priest Guy is forced to confront what appears to be a miracle, and half the time they fall to their knees, the other half it's revealed they weren't actually believers, it was all a front.

All fair, but this part I think we just disagree on, or I may be misremember it. I take this scene as you have already talked him back from going after the priests, but he appears here anyway (probably poor writing or plot following but whatever) but you pop that light out and he is confounded. He think's hes in the right, but he sees the Light, he knows we the player are telling the truth (he casts a spell in the first encounter) and he just cannot understand why we (Righteous) are standing in his way (Righteous).

Regill on the other hand, has no qualms about what he does. People are wounded? Kill them, slowing us down, not a second thought.

Hulraan does have that reasonable doubt, IMO.

 

[Faolyn]

I think that if we view factions with more nuance and the motivating factors to align with them we would find that most Cobra agents are not there by "choice" in any meaningful way.

That may or may not be true, based on the background of the individual. And indeed that would make for interesting NPCs, if you want to go that far down each NPC's history. I find that I do that a lot--try to come up with a justification for each villain I use, even the minor ones.

But when it comes down to it, people are still not born with an undying devotion to a faction. They may be raised in one, but people can and do realize that the faction they were raised in is bad or otherwise doesn't represent their ideals, and people can and do escape from such places or rebel in some way if they can't. I'm not saying that every antagonist NPC in an Evil Faction needs to be either die-hard evil or a secret rebel, of course--but it's likely that they are either actively supporting the Evil Faction or simply don't care about the bad stuff it does.

But people are born into a "race" and can't change that.

 

[Oofta]

That may or may not be true, based on the background of the individual. And indeed that would make for interesting NPCs, if you want to go that far down each NPC's history. I find that I do that a lot--try to come up with a justification for each villain I use, even the minor ones.

But when it comes down to it, people are still not born with an undying devotion to a faction. They may be raised in one, but people can and do realize that the faction they were raised in is bad or otherwise doesn't represent their ideals, and people can and do escape from such places or rebel in some way if they can't. I'm not saying that every antagonist NPC in an Evil Faction needs to be either die-hard evil or a secret rebel, of course--but it's likely that they are either actively supporting the Evil Faction or simply don't care about the bad stuff it does.

But people are born into a "race" and can't change that.

Then it's a good thing that the alignment listed in the MM is just the default, even if it should have been more explicit.

 

[Maxperson]

But when it comes down to it, people are still not born with an undying devotion to a faction. They may be raised in one, but people can and do realize that the faction they were raised in is bad or otherwise doesn't represent their ideals, and people can and do escape from such places or rebel in some way if they can't. I'm not saying that every antagonist NPC in an Evil Faction needs to be either die-hard evil or a secret rebel, of course--but it's likely that they are either actively supporting the Evil Faction or simply don't care about the bad stuff it does.

Sure, but none of that is true outside of a few narrow races like Demons, Devils and Angels. At no point is an orc, goblin, bugbear or Ettin ever born with an undying devotion to anything. And even with Demons, Devils, etc., there are still exceptions.

 

[Faolyn]

Sure, but none of that is true outside of a few narrow races like Demons, Devils and Angels. At no point is an orc, goblin, bugbear or Ettin ever born with an undying devotion to anything. And even with Demons, Devils, etc., there are still exceptions.

That was my point.

 

[Marandahir]

*In the real world most polytheistic religions didn't really have a single god that they worshipped, although some like the Greeks had patron deities for their city. Worshipping a single deity out of many wasn't normally a thing.

This was also a thing in Ancient Mesopotamia, Ancient Mesoamerica, Ancient Italy, Ancient Celtic Europe, Ancient Japan, Ancient China…

Ancestor Worship, the Divine King or Queen of the City, the God of the Tribe, and genius loci are very very very common in so-called Polytheisms.

Usually it's more that there is the patron deity of the tribe or the natural area you live in, but you also recognise a few other deities too as important, so when you're visiting another city, you offer sacrifice to their patron god as well, just in case.

The big shift for monotheisms like Atenism and Judaism were their refusals to offer sacrifices to or recognition of the other nations' deities (including the Egyptian and Roman God-Emperors, when it comes to the Hebrews).

So when you're portraying a Pelor faction, sure, recognise that the Raven Queen exists too (after all, you eventually will die), and maybe make a generous offering to her temple when you visit Nera or Gloomwrought, but otherwise you're not going to spend much effort on her, since she and Pelor aren't closely related. Erathis and Ioun, on the other hand, live in the same divine city as Pelor as co-rulers, so you may be more likely to have a small shrine to each of them off to the side in your Temple of Pelor.