D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 2 - The Mundane Limit

[Mordhau]

Martial characters really need epic destinies. I think it's that simple. Casters don't really need them because being a level 20 wizard or cleric already is one.

But I really think the simplest thing would be a tier system. The game just needs to decide at which point a Fighter goes beyond say Conan, and give a fictional explanation of this. It could really be anything, it could be they are on the path to becoming a demigod and so no longer age, are immune to disease, and explicitly and fictionally can break the laws of physics in certain domains. As always people will insist that this is unnecessary, but I just don't see any way forward without this concession. As long the vagueness remains the arguments will continue.

Ultimately however, it is impossible to resolve anything without doing something with the implied setting of the game. That's why I think putting characters on the path to godhood is probably the simplest solution since the idea of mortals rising to gods is already a long standing background element of D&D.

 

[DND_Reborn]

As always people will insist that this is unnecessary, but I just don't see any way forward without this concession. As long the vagueness remains the arguments will continue.

(bold added)

The problem is: some people want really epic, some people want Street Fighter level power, some people want superheroic, some people want this, some people want that, and so on...

You say "Martial characters really need epic destinies," but at just what level that is achieved is completely subjective. Personally, I would like Street Fighter level (mentioned above, I realized this is basically my limit, personally ), so what do we do? You want want thing, I want another, someone else wants something else...

Sadly, you are completely CORRECT that until a consensus is reached (whatever that is), this will go no where.

I've tried.

 

[Scribe]

Suggesting mythic and narrative based martial abilities is the easiest way to out spell caster supremacist who are trying to pretend they are not.

Is this an act like how a certain person loves hates Bards?

 

[Mordhau]

(bold added)

The problem is: some people want really epic, some people want Street Fighter level power, some people want superheroic, some people want this, some people want that, and so on...

You say "Martial characters really need epic destinies," but at just what level that is achieved is completely subjective. Personally, I would like Street Fighter level (mentioned above, I realized this is basically my limit, personally ), so what do we do? You want want thing, I want another, someone else wants something else...

Sadly, you are completely CORRECT that until a consensus is reached (whatever that is), this will go no where.

I've tried.

Given that a lot of people don't seem to want to play beyond level 12, then I would think that would probably be a good break point. Take an epic destiny at level 13. There's lots of ways to make Fighters better before that point without needing to give them things that are supernatural (and limitations can be applied to magic).

But I don't think a consensus can be reached. Some people just need to be unhappy. They'll live. At some stage the the sheer conservativism of 5e and the need to try and keep everyone happy will need to break. It can't last forever.

 

[Minigiant]

Martial characters really need epic destinies. I think it's that simple. Casters don't really need them because being a level 20 wizard or cleric already is one.

But I really think the simplest thing would be a tier system. The game just needs to decide at which point a Fighter goes beyond say Conan, and give a fictional explanation of this. It could really be anything, it could be they are on the path to becoming a demigod and so no longer age, are immune to disease, and explicitly and fictionally can break the laws of physics in certain domains. As always people will insist that this is unnecessary, but I just don't see any way forward without this concession. As long the vagueness remains the arguments will continue.

Ultimately however, it is impossible to resolve anything without doing something with the implied setting of the game. That's why I think putting characters on the path to godhood is probably the simplest solution since the idea of mortals rising to gods is already a long standing background element of D&D.

(bold added)

The problem is: some people want really epic, some people want Street Fighter level power, some people want superheroic, some people want this, some people want that, and so on...

You say "Martial characters really need epic destinies," but at just what level that is achieved is completely subjective. Personally, I would like Street Fighter level (mentioned above, I realized this is basically my limit, personally ), so what do we do? You want want thing, I want another, someone else wants something else...

Sadly, you are completely CORRECT that until a consensus is reached (whatever that is), this will go no where.

I've tried.

Maybe the solution for that is Variant options for a Epic Destiny Feature.

Give each martial class a default Epic Destiny that doesn't break mythic expectations too much. Then offer variant Epic Destinies that the DM can allow to bend reality a bit. Sorta like a second subclass.

The default Epic Destiny for the Fighter could be a Legendary Weaponmaster. Then the DM could allow the Demigod of Strength, Destined Hero, or Mythic Sovereign.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Perfect Lie - Modify Memory spell.
Beyond the Limit - Haste spell.
Disintegrating Strike- Disintegrate spell.
Dispelling Blow - Dispel Magic.
Guardian Surge - Bless
Cry of Indominance - Aid
Network of Spies - Divination.
Seismic Slam - thunderwave
Cult of Personality - dominate person
The Dance of Daggers - Animate Objects spell.

Most of them have the spell they are recreating in the description of the power!

Ahhh. So you want the benefits of magic, without the restrictions… I see. So it’s a power play. Now it all makes sense.

Also climbing..spider climb
Swimming..water walk
Ranged attack..eldritch blast
Using thieves' tools..knock.

The nerve...

 

[Scribe]

Perfect Lie - Modify Memory spell.
Beyond the Limit - Haste spell.
Disintegrating Strike- Disintegrate spell.
Dispelling Blow - Dispel Magic.
Guardian Surge - Bless
Cry of Indominance - Aid
Network of Spies - Divination.
Seismic Slam - thunderwave
Cult of Personality - dominate person
The Dance of Daggers - Animate Objects spell.

This is the part I have issue with. I'm 100% fine with Feats/Manuvers/Abilities, but if we are just filing off the names of Spells and handing those over, whats the point? Thats just 'everyone gets powers' but if they are all the same? Why?

 

[TheSword]

Also climbing..spider climb
Swimming..water walk
Ranged attack..eldritch blast
Using thieves' tools..knock.

The nerve...

Well I was responding to the claim that these abilities weren’t about replicating spells. When all but three of the abilities specifically mentioned spells to reference for the effects.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But I don't think a consensus can be reached. Some people just need to be unhappy. They'll live. At some stage the the sheer conservativism of 5e and the need to try and keep everyone happy will need to break. It can't last forever.

Probably. Unfortunately...

Given that a lot of people don't seem to want to play beyond level 12, then I would think that would probably be a good break point. Take an epic destiny at level 13. There's lots of ways to make Fighters better before that point without needing to give them things that are supernatural (and limitations can be applied to magic).

You know, that makes me think about prestige classes.

What if at level 13 you had prestige classes (epic destinies, whatever) that you would have to qualify for that would let people who wanted more powerful martials in tier 3 and 4 obtain them?

IIRC only a few really seemed to want "superheroic/epic/paragon" type things at lower levels? I would like to see more heroic abilities, so that PCs could actually meet or beat records IRL, etc.

EDIT: something along these lines, too:

Maybe the solution for that is Variant options for a Epic Destiny Feature.

Give each martial class a default Epic Destiny that doesn't break mythic expectations too much. Then offer variant Epic Destinies that the DM can allow to bend reality a bit. Sorta like a second subclass.

The default Epic Destiny for the Fighter could be a Legendary Weaponmaster. Then the DM could allow the Demigod of Strength, Destined Hero, or Mythic Sovereign.

 

[Umbran]

Suggesting mythic and narrative based martial abilities is the easiest way to out spell caster supremacist who are trying to pretend they are not.

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