D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[ECMO3]

Unsettling words costs 3 bard class levels and subclass pick to get and is very strong. It also requires resource expendature before you know it is worthwhile, level 5 to get the resource to refresh on a short rest, and more bard levels to boost its effectiveness (bigger die size).

Hound of Ill Omen costs 6 sorcerer levels, a subclass pick, 3 sp, and can be killed. It is also considered crazy powerful.

I don't think anyone sees either of these as OP. Niether require a spell slot or a reaction. Further, in general you are going to be able to use unsettling words more often than SB (with a 1st level slot) most of the time.

The ound of Ill omen is far, far better than SB (as it should be) doing a large number of things to include imposing disadvantage turn after turn.

Mind Sliver costs an action, requires a failed saving throw to eork, shaves 1d4 off only, and has to be invested in before you know it is needed.

It is a much higher cost and is less likely to work than Mind Sliver.

For comparison: SB as a spell save reroll requires an action to do whatever causes the first save, a success on the first save to have the opportunity to cast SB, a reaction and finally "requires a failed saveing throw" to be effective. It also burns a 1st level slot.

As far as stacking, SB does not stack with either Mind Sliver or Unsettling words. These spells stat the die is subtracted from "the first saving throw it makes", that would be the save it succeeded on to trigger SB.

Hound of Ill Omen does not stack either. This imposes disadvantage on the first save. SB is not triggered until that is resolved and the save is a "sucess". Once triggered you can make him roll that die again, but it is just rolling one dice, not rolling with disadvantage again because it states "the d20".

Assuming the target succeeds, you can use SB after using any of these abilities, but note now you are forcing a straight reroll on an enemy that either succeeded with disadvantage or succeeded with a -2.5/-3.5 average penalty. This reduces the statistical power of the spell even more.

 

[ECMO3]

or for the same amount of sorcery points I could have gotten 3 SB instead of 2 heighten spell.

Only if you meet the requirements to cast it (have a reaction available, within 60 feet, save made). If you don't have all three of these it is useless. And while in terms of spell slots, you can cast 3SB per 2 HS, HS at any DC is more likely to cause a failed save.

Finally HS is not considered OP at all! As a matter of fact it is not even one of the commonly chosen metamagics, with quicken spell, twin spell and subtle spell all being chosen far more often. You are comparing SB to a metamagic generally considered a lower-tier choice from a middle of the road class. It is inferior to that ability both mathematically and usability. This does not support the hypothesis that it is OP.

 

[Stoutstien]

I don't think anyone sees either of these as OP. Niether require a spell slot or a reaction. Further, in generaly you are going to be able to use unsettling words more often than SB (with a 1st level slot) most of the time.

The ound of Ill omen is far, far better than SB (asit should be) doing a large number of things to include imposing disadvantage turn after turn


It is a much higher cost and is less likely to work than Mind Sliver.

SB as a spell save reroll requires an action to do whatever causes the first save, a success on the first save to have the opportunity to cast SB, a reaction and "requires a failed saveing throw" to be effective. It also burns a 1st level slot.

As far as stacking, SB does not stack with either Mind Sliver or Unsettling words. These spells stat the die is subtracted from "the first saving throw it makes", that would be the save it suceeded on to trigger the SB.

Hound of Ill Omen does not stack either. This imposes disadvantage on the first save. SB is not triggered until that is resolved and the save is a "sucess". Once triggered you can make him roll that die again, but it is just rolling one dice, not rolling with disadvantage again becasue it states "the d20".

Now assuming the target succeeds, you can use SB after using either of these abilities, but note now you are forcing a straight reroll on an enemy that either succeeded with disadvantage or succeeded with a -2.5/-3.5 average penalty. This reduces the statistical power of the spell even more.

mind sliver and UW should stack it because of the wording of SB is replacing the roll within the save rather than rerolling the save as a whole. It's still the same ST as far as either is concerned.
It's one of the spells like shield that can prevent the trigger from actually occuring. Which is weird IMO.

 

[Stalker0]

For comparison: SB as a spell save reroll requires an action to do whatever causes the first save, a success on the first save to have the opportunity to cast SB, a reaction and finally "requires a failed saveing throw" to be effective. It also burns a 1st level slot.

As far as stacking, SB does not stack with either Mind Sliver or Unsettling words. These spells stat the die is subtracted from "the first saving throw it makes", that would be the save it succeeded on to trigger SB.

If people really feel that SB is not going to come in a standard adventuring day, you just aren't throwing as many saving throw spells as the wizards I generally see.

And the abilities do stack with Mind Sliver and Unsettling words....to a point. Unsettling words subtracts from the save, if its enough...no SB needed (great!). If its not enough, we can activate silvery barbs to get another chance. Both spells work together to maximize the chance that a high level spell lands, even if they don't directly stack on top of each other.

The other argument against SB is the notion of "increased resource consumption", but that is not entirely true. For example, if in a fight I cast polymorph and fail to land it... well next round I'm probably going to throw out another big spell. But if my polymorph lands with some SB assistance, I as a wizard have done my job. I now have taken a major threat out of the fight, perhaps the biggest threat. I can now switch to cantrips or lower level spells and let the martials clean up.

More saves landed = fewer high level slots used = more higher level slots left in the day. How many 1st level slots is worth getting another 4th level slot in the day, or 5th?

 

[Bolares]

If people really feel that SB is not going to come in a standard adventuring day, you just aren't throwing as many saving throw spells as the wizards I generally see.

I think you will have a lot of oportunities to use Barbs. How many of those are advantageous and actually give you a decent chance of winning the reroll is the tough nut to crack IMHO. If the adventuring day has more enemies with low bonuses Barb will have less triggers (because less sucecces will happen), and probably less impactfull effects being changed (as low bonuses regularly appear in weaker foes) but more chance to win the roll. If the opponents have higher stats Barb will have a lot of triggers, and more meaningful rerolls, but a worse chance of actually succeeding. This is the complexity of the spell for me, and where I have trouble guessing if it is going to come in a standard (whatever standard means in each table is another deep topic) adventuring day.

In the end of the day, I haven't played with the spell yet, I'm not a mathematician and I think most white room theories about RPG balancing are meaningless, soooo... I don't know. I don't know if it is broken. My gut says it isn't, but I'll be damned if my gut wasn't wrong before.

 

[Stalker0]

HS at any DC is more likely to cause a failed save.

You have made this assertion multiple times, and I continue to dispute it.

Here's a simple table of some standard failure chances:

Base Failure	HS Boost	SB Boost	SB Boost (by sorcery point)	HS Boost (by sorcery point)
0.35​	0.2275​	0.1225​	0.175​	0.1925​
0.4​	0.24​	0.16​	0.2​	0.213333​
0.45​	0.2475​	0.2025​	0.225​	0.2325​
0.5​	0.25​	0.25​	0.25​	0.25​
0.55​	0.2475​	0.3025​	0.275​	0.265833​
0.6​	0.24​	0.36​	0.3​	0.28​
0.65​	0.2275​	0.4225​	0.325​	0.2925​
0.7​	0.21​	0.49​	0.35​	0.303333​

Column 2: Increase in overall failure rate for using HS
Column 3: Increase in overall failure rate for using SB
Column 4: Increase in immediate failure rate by using sorcery points for on SB.
Column 5: Increase in overall failure rate by using sorcery points on HS

What this shows is: If the creature has a low chance of failing, than HS provides a higher boost to failure than SB. But as soon as you go over 50%, SB is superior in overall value.

We can also look at this in terms of resource value. Dividing Column 2 by 3 sorcery points gives us the HS per point. With SB, because we only choose to spend the resource after getting an initial result, when we spend it we get the base failure rate all over again, divided by 2 points.

So once again, once saves are over 50%, SB is superior to HS. Both in total failure boost, and in boost per resource spent.


Now we can debate when each one is better, and that's a reasonable debate. But this assertion that HS is always statistically superior to SB is completely false.

As for whether HS is not a common choice for sorcs, keep in mind its high cost in sorcery points is a major factor, and it has to compete with abilities like quicken. SB is the cheapest spell resource there is.

I also continue to assert, that the fact we are even comparing a 1st level spell to major class features is a point in the "possibly OP camp". When a wizard can do what makes a sorc special with a 1st level spell....that should be cause for concern.

 

[Mort]

You have made this assertion multiple times, and I continue to dispute it.

Here's a simple table of some standard failure chances:

Base Failure	HS Boost	SB Boost	SB Boost (by sorcery point)	HS Boost (by sorcery point)
0.35​	0.2275​	0.1225​	0.175​	0.1925​
0.4​	0.24​	0.16​	0.2​	0.213333​
0.45​	0.2475​	0.2025​	0.225​	0.2325​
0.5​	0.25​	0.25​	0.25​	0.25​
0.55​	0.2475​	0.3025​	0.275​	0.265833​
0.6​	0.24​	0.36​	0.3​	0.28​
0.65​	0.2275​	0.4225​	0.325​	0.2925​
0.7​	0.21​	0.49​	0.35​	0.303333​

Column 2: Increase in overall failure rate for using HS
Column 3: Increase in overall failure rate for using SB
Column 4: Increase in immediate failure rate by using sorcery points for on SB.
Column 5: Increase in overall failure rate by using sorcery points on HS

What this shows is: If the creature has a low chance of failing, than HS provides a higher boost to failure than SB. But as soon as you go over 50%, SB is superior in overall value.

We can also look at this in terms of resource value. Dividing Column 2 by 3 sorcery points gives us the HS per point. With SB, because we only choose to spend the resource after getting an initial result, when we spend it we get the base failure rate all over again, divided by 2 points.

So once again, once saves are over 50%, SB is superior to HS.


Now we can debate when each one is better, and that's a reasonable debate. But this assertion that HS is always statistically superior to SB is completely false.

As for whether HS is not a common choice for sorcs, keep in mind its high cost in sorcery points is a major factor, and it has to compete with abilities like quicken. SB is the cheapest spell resource there is.

I also continue to assert, that the fact we are even comparing a 1st level spell to major class features is a point in the "possibly OP camp". When a wizard can do what makes a sorc special with a 1st level spell....that should be cause for concern.

A real easy "fix" - if you feel it's needed:

SB available to bards only. They don't get access to Shield, endure elements etc. (barring magical secrets). Fits in better with support anyway and Bards need a bit more oomph with first level spells (IMO).

Or barring that - be more restrictive as to spells doled out to ALL casters. If your in a school that allows this spell, not so easy to get other ones. The school that allows this spell does NOT (again IMO) have the best selection of the schools by a long shot.

Just some thoughts.

 

[ECMO3]

If people really feel that SB is not going to come in a standard adventuring day, you just aren't throwing as many saving throw spells as the wizards I generally see.

No, you aren't throwing as many in a standard day from within 60 feet, with a reaction available against an enemy that is likely to fail on a saving throw he already suceeded on.

You don't choose when you get to use SB, the dice do and when they allow it for a rerolled save that will be a save they will succeed on again most of the time.

Here are some actual numbers. Assuming you cast a save spell with each of the slots 2nd level and above and assuming you make sure you are within 60 feet and have a reaction available for SB every time you cast such a higher level slot:

5th Level Wizard: A 5th level wizard has 5 spell slots above first level.

On average against a DC of 8 you will cast SB 3 times that day and change 1 save (1.25 average).

On average against a DC of 15 you will cast SB 1.5 times that day and change 1 save (1.2 average). You will also go to sleep with 2.5 unused 1st level slots. If you don't save barbs then that one great use case goes down.

11th Level Wizard: An 11th level wizard has 12 slots available above 1st level

On average against a DC of 8 you will cast SB 4 times that day and change 2 saves (1.6 average).

On average against a DC of 15 you will cast SB 3 times that day and change 2 saves (2.3 average) .

Those numbers assume a bunch of things:
1. They assume you use ALL your slots 2nd level and above on a spell that requires a save. No casting attack spells or utility spells. Everything is a save.
2. It assumes you use SB every time you have an opportunity (once per spell). So if you cast flaming sphere and the guy makes his dex save, you are going to use SB instead of saving it for a more powerful spell.
3. It assumes you only use SB for trying to flip spell saves.
4. It assumes you are within 60 feet and have a reaction available EVERY time you cast a spell of 2nd level or higher.
5. It assumes you cast no other 1st level spells.

Change any of these assumptions and the number of saves flipped goes down.

Also note the number of saved flips is against all spells cast. So saying you will change 1 save a day at 5th level is not the same as saying you can make someone fail vs Hypnotic Pattern or Fear once a day. That is the chance it will change 1 random save assuming all you are casting are save spells. If you cast the following spells in a day: Fear, Fireball, Hold Person, Ray of Enfeeblement and Tasha's Mind Whip. It could be against Fear that you get the flip, or it could just as easily be against one of the others. If you only use it when you cast fear, the number of successful flips per day goes down to 0 (0.32 average). This means if you save SB for Fear and you end up casting Fear once a day, you will generally never use SB to successfully flip a save while you are 5th level.

And the abilities do stack with Mind Sliver and Usettling words....to a point. Unsettling words subtracts from the save, if its enough...no SB needed (great!). If its not enough, we can activate silvery barbs to get another chance. Both spells work together to maximize the chance that a high level spell lands, even if they don't directly stack on top of each other.

They do work together but they do not stack. The fact he already made a save with unsetttling words makes it even mor elikely he will make the reroll.

The other argument against SB is the notion of "increased resource consumption", but that is not entirely true. For example, if in a fight I cast polymorph and fail to land it... well next round I'm probably going to throw out another big spell. But if my polymorph lands with some SB assistance, I as a wizard have done my job. I now have taken a major threat out of the fight, perhaps the biggest threat. I can now switch to cantrips or lower level spells and let the martials clean up.

Two things:
First that is only true IF he fails the reroll. Further it also presumes that you do not fail concentration because you already used your reaction and are within 60 feet.

It is a string of conditions that have to all fall in line for it to work for this.

 

[ECMO3]

You have made this assertion multiple times, and I continue to dispute it.

Here's a simple table of some standard failure chances:

Base Failure	HS Boost	SB Boost	SB Boost (by sorcery point)	HS Boost (by sorcery point)
0.35​	0.2275​	0.1225​	0.175​	0.1925​
0.4​	0.24​	0.16​	0.2​	0.213333​
0.45​	0.2475​	0.2025​	0.225​	0.2325​
0.5​	0.25​	0.25​	0.25​	0.25​
0.55​	0.2475​	0.3025​	0.275​	0.265833​
0.6​	0.24​	0.36​	0.3​	0.28​
0.65​	0.2275​	0.4225​	0.325​	0.2925​
0.7​	0.21​	0.49​	0.35​	0.303333​

Column 2: Increase in overall failure rate for using HS
Column 3: Increase in overall failure rate for using SB
Column 4: Increase in immediate failure rate by using sorcery points for on SB.
Column 5: Increase in overall failure rate by using sorcery points on HS

Column 3 is wrong because you only use SB after the first save is succeeds. Looking at row 1, if Base failure is .35% there is no boost for casting SB, it is .35% when you cast SB. Column 3 should be 0, that should fix the table.

Think of it this way: If I tell you I will let you roll a d20 20 times and I will give you $1000 if you roll at least one 1 and you will give me $1000 if you don't. You should take this bet, you have a 65% chance of winning.

If you have already rolled 19 times in a row and not got a 1 and I offer you the same deal, roll a 1 on this roll you would be foolish to take it because you have a 95% chance of losing.

That is obviously an extreme example, chosen to illustrate the point. For something more directly applicable - If I tell you I will let you roll two dice and give you $1000 if ONE of them is below 8, you give me $1000 if both are 8 or above. You have a 58% chance of winning. This is a good bet for you. This is disadvantage

If you already rolled one dice and it is above an 8 and I tell you I will give you $1000 if you roll below an 8 on the next dice you would be foolish to take that bet because you only have a 35% chance of winning. This is silvery barbs

If you could chose to use the slot before the first roll it would be more powerful mathematically.

 

[Bolares]

If I understand it correctly, the first roll is used for two things: triggering the chance to use Barbs and acessing the probability of success (if that information is public in your table). From a statistical standpoint it is history, and won't affect the odds of succeding in the reroll. Is that correct?