D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

[Bedrockgames]

That comparison makes no sense: werewolves coming from Europe and doing bad things wouldn't make them a commentary on the evils of Europeans. If they actually reflected stereotypes of Europeans, then maybe that would hold, but I don't even know what that would look like. The point of the critique of Efreets is that they reflect a bunch of outdated and bad stereotypes of Arab culture. That's not propaganda, that's being able to observe reality.

I think there are maybe two different points being made in this thread. My understanding is the first point is it is a problem to have a monster with cultural features from a culture that isn't in the game because that then becomes a stand in for the culture itself. That any traits the genie has, would therefore have to be a commentary on arabs. This seems very different from the point you are making which would be, regardless of whether there is an arabic culture in the setting, it is going to be an issue if your genies embody negative stereotypes of Arabs. That is a more involved discussion. I think where we might disagree is on the layers aspect (i.e. whether something is truly being used as a negative stereotype or just superficially seems to be, or when viewed through a certain lens, like Said's Orientalism, appears to be). The latter is a topic probably best served in another thread. Because I think it is much broader and larger than what the OP seemed to be saying.

 

[Lyxen]

It's almost like they are oriented to non-European monsters that may not be used well? I dunno, just a thought.

May not be used well by who ? My problem is that it's immediately translated from a vague feeling of the OP on specific monsters to a huge general concern about cultures, and then not any culture, only non-european.

I'm sorry, but at this stage, isn't it solely about the OP to question himself about those specific feelings ? And in particular with regards to european monsters who are actually used in a stereotypical manner, for example on fey and celtic undertones ?

In the past people were conflating D&D with Satanism. It had no evidence and it was easy to debunk. This is obviously not the case, given that the people who have problems are often coming from within the community themselves.

Unfortunately not, the most virulent attacks do not come from the community, which is why I find it sad and annoying that it's relayed from inside the community, especially since it's as flimsy as this case is. It's even more annoying because the external focus bears solely upon two races (orcs and drows) and has now transformed into a wide witch hunt about races within the game.

D&D can make mistakes and absolutely has in the past (both distant and recent). The problem is that it is hard to correct these things when everyone is ridiculously sensitive to questioning the product.

D&D has made obvious mistakes and is in the process of correcting those. And it would be waaaayyy easier if people stopped piling more on the plate when there are not mistakes. Again, where is the mistake in this case ? Just someone feeling uncomfortable about something not even precisely written down but about his own personal interpretation of a number of sources does not make it a mistake in D&D.

And for me, that is the problem, people immediately assuming that a mistake has been made, that there is a problem and that it needs a solution.

So if you think there has been a mistake, please explain to us exactly what that mistake was...

 

[Bedrockgames]

If you can't give me an example, it kind of is? Again, it's a concern, not something we've actually observed.

It is something I have observed, and I am certain many posters here can chime and verify they have observed it too. I just don't want to put a target on any product, designer or critic who is on either side of this discussion (and I think that is a valid concern, because even if I object to the trend, I don't want to see someone who agrees with the trend and uses it in their design get heat because of a thread like this). But I assure you, this isn't a figment. It is based on real things I've observed over the last several years.

 

[Lyxen]

That comparison makes no sense: werewolves coming from Europe and doing bad things wouldn't make them a commentary on the evils of Europeans.

Then please explain why a Rakshasa coming from India and doing bad things makes some people uncomfortable...

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, it kind of is and that's not bad. It's something hard to shake. But if you're afraid of how your work is going to be looked at, you're afraid because you think someone is going to say that you made something bad. And how you get around that is to have other people look at it, edit it, and stuff like that. It's a frightening process, but it's one that I thought really helped me.

You are simplifying. What my concern was, was people misunderstanding my work, or reading things into it I never intended. But I think the outcome of following that concern, was that it reduced the quality of the material. And I can look back at some things I've made and see that, and be critical. So this isn't a fear of others criticizing my work, or a fear of going back myself and seeing its flaws. It is more of a fundamental disagreement with the approach being advocated for arts and games. You seem to trust that this process of collectively editing a work of art or game to be less problematic, is going to lead to better content. I think it is more likely to produce pablum.

 

[Voadam]

I mean, unironically this would rock. I would totally be interested in an Indian sub-continent setting that was written by people who actually had knowledge of the subject would be huge.

I can't speak for their actual knowledge but there was Sahasra from the d20 era, Green Ronin's 3.0 Psionic Land/Fantasy India Mindshadows, the 3.0 Oriental Adventures big web supplement doing a fantasy India take, and a fairly big OSR one I can't remember the name of.

I really enjoyed the 5e monster supplement Beasts from the East India.

 

[Alzrius]

I can't speak for their actual knowledge but there was Sahasra from the d20 era, Green Ronin's 3.0 Psionic Land/Fantasy India Mindshadows, the 3.0 Oriental Adventures big web supplement doing a fantasy India take, and an OSR one I can't remember the name of.

I think the OSR one is Arrows of Indra (affiliate link).

 

[bedir than]

Genies are cool, and they're not all evil. This is just another argument for removing content.

I wasn't talking about genies. Pretty clearly so. And it's not an argument for removing content.
Again, I'm not arguing for removing content. I'm arguing that creatives have enough talent to honor the cultures they borrow from. Or they're just not creative.

With due respect, the original criticism used Eberron as an example. I find it difficult to watch anyone accuse Keith Baker of lacking creativity.

Keith hasn't been hamstrung by changing his world to honor the peoples that inspire it. He uses some of the most modern takes on races in the public sphere. He's also not the one saying that the only way to represent a culture is by perpetuating harm while calling that "creative."

 

[Alzrius]

It is something I have observed, and I am certain many posters here can chime and verify they have observed it too. I just don't want to put a target on any product, designer or critic who is on either side of this discussion (and I think that is a valid concern, because even if I object to the trend, I don't want to see someone who agrees with the trend and uses it in their design get heat because of a thread like this). But I assure you, this isn't a figment. It is based on real things I've observed over the last several years.

I don't want to call anyone out either, but I'll attest that I've observed this also.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I wasn't talking about genies. Pretty clearly so. And it's not an argument for removing content.
Again, I'm not arguing for removing content. I'm arguing that creatives have enough talent to honor the cultures they borrow from. Or they're just not creative.

Keith hasn't been hamstrung by changing his world to honor the peoples that inspire it. He uses some of the most modern takes on races in the public sphere. He's also not the one saying that the only way to represent a culture is by perpetuating harm while calling that "creative."

Well, I was talking about genies. And regarding rakshasa, who is going to read about them and assume a broad generalization is being made about people from India? How ignorant do you think the average TTRPG consumer is?