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D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

How many generations would you give folks before they only get to claim their new country of residence?

(Wondering in my own ancestry about the Germans who lived en masse in the Volga river valley for a few generations. Would they count as Russian?)
I don't know, and it is not about individuals or some specific cut-off points. Just about the overall sentiment. It really struck me in that one thread where an (presumably) American publisher said they didn't include non-European mythology in their book to avoid 'cultural appropriation,' but apparently felt fine with claiming the whole Europe as their 'heritage'... :unsure:

Anyway, somewhat off topic.
 
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Then what is? Because I presented the main positions that I came up with earlier in this thread (in this post). You haven't seemed to have taken a stance on them, and seem mostly to be trying to derail the thread and act like it shouldn't exist. Can you not see that if it doesn't appear that you support any presented position and are almost solely criticizing the existence of the thread/discussion that it would appear that that's your position?

My position on your OP is not yet formed because I am trying to understand it. My position on the topic of where we are moving generally on these kinds of discussions, which was in response largely to other peoples posts, I have laid out. I am not criticizing the existence of your thread, but I was criticizing some of the push back to critiques of ideas that emerged in the thread (which I think is fair----threads meander and move in all kinds of directions)
 

The post you're responding to now only quoted you in posts where you had quoted (and directly responded to) me.

But your initial response to me was me responding to Vaalingrade, not you. Then I responded to your response, which is why I am now responding to your posts. But if you follow the trail of our exchange this is the post I was originally responding to:

Oh no! Future RPGs will be more thought out and not just shotgun any and everything at the wall with zero thought!

First they came for racist, colonial stereotypes, then they came for the monsters weirdly orphaned from their culture due to exoticism. Then there was no one left when they came for other examples of ignorance or malice.
 

Eubani

Legend
There does seem to be a double standard as to usage of various cultures and myths in ttrpg's and when it is brought up said person faces accusations/implications of racism or accusations such as arguing in bad faith. Also a search for such a problem will always find one whether it exists or not. Don't get me wrong, poor usage of culture myth and race can be racist but not all usage is and too often something derived from a culture is enough to get called problematic.

Instead of automatically being offended on another's behalf maybe research or discuss with relevant people to see if it is in fact racist or insulting. Others that are seeking to be offended on another's behalf and the professionally offended are not relevant people to get these answers when you seek to discuss with relevant parties. Members of culture/race in question or experts in involved topics are.
 

MGibster

Legend
Not that demonising European cultures really bothers me regardless of who does it, but it still low-key bugs me when Americans think European culture and mythology belongs to them. Write games about the Wild West, Paul Bunyan and Bigfoots if you want base things on your own mythology.
Our ancestors hail from the British Isles, Southern Europe, Northern Europe, western Africa, and other parts of the world and they all brought their culture and mythos with them. We were weaned on those myths, they're part of our culture, and we'll interpret them however we wish.

Edit: I meant myths. I'm hoping they didn't bring the mythos with them.
 

Irlo

Hero
The dilemma that I discussed in the OP broke down into these three options:
  1. Should we strip the cultural context from the borrowed monsters to avoid them becoming stand-ins for those cultures in worlds that don't already have stand-ins for them. (Like Eberron, which doesn't have a humanoid cultural stand-in for Middle Eastern people, but does have a nation of Rakshasa that wear similar outfits, have similar architecture, the same titles, etc.) This has the issue of possibly being mis-appropriation of those cultures' creatures.
  2. Should we just not use those creatures in the first place if there is a risk of them being taken as stand-ins for that real-world culture? (Again, would it better to just not use Rakshasas in Eberron as a major population of an area of the main continent and instead just use a different type of fiend to get across the same theme without appearing to misuse the monsters.)
  3. Should we instead include a humanoid version of the cultural stand-ins (like Al-Qadim) so there would then be a place for the creatures from those real-world cultures in the used setting? (Maybe by adding a Middle-East stand in to the area of the Demon Wastes or perhaps Sarlona/Xen'Drik to explain why they have similar cultures to the real world counterparts of them.)
A few folks have mentioned other creatures to consider, like vampires and medusa. To some of us, it feels like we can treat them differently than djinn and rakshasa. That might be worth exploring.

Vampires have prevalent pop-culture representation that has severed the creature from its European culture of origin. We're used to seeing vampires outside of Europe, and most pop-culture vampires still inhabit pseudo-Earth, which has a Europe, so when we do see a vamp with European trappings, it's not jarring. D&D has Barovia, sure, but most vampires in D&D adventures are creatures of whatever fantasy culture they inhabit.

Medusas were divorced from Ancient Greek culture from their introduction into D&D. Movie representations of Medusa are usually set in Mythic Greece (or modern-day expansions of Greek myth, like the Percy Jackson stories). But medusa don't appear in D&D in Greek settings or with Greek props or clothing, as far as I know. (Does Forgotten Realms have a Greek Counterpart Culture? I don't know.) Recent appearances in published books (ToA, PotA) put the medusas squarely into non-Greek fantasy cultures.

Djinni have been treated differently, and I think that leads me to consider them differently. First, djinn in pop-culture generally are always presented as part of an Arabic or Mythic Arabic culture. We don't see djinni adapted to other cultures. Or, I should say, I haven't seen it. Second, djinn in D&D have from the start (or at least since AD&D 1e) been specifically described as having themselves an Arabic culture. For that reason, having djinni appear with Mythic Arabian culture in a game world that doesn't have an Arabian Counterpart Culture feels ... questionable. In my experience, they've been coded as "not-mine" in a way that vampires and medusas have not, and that makes me want to be careful when I pick them up to play with them. (Not that I'm always careful. I haven't really thought about djinni much before this thread began, so it's been an opportunity.)

It could be interesting to remove the traditional culture trappings and see djinni as part of another culture, like we might see a vampire private eye in LA or an aristocratic medusa in Cormyr.

If the game world does not have a human Arabian Counterpart Culture, I wouldn't use djinni and leave them seeped in that culture.

If the game world does have such a culture, one might explain in a few different ways why the djinni's culture mirrors it. Perhaps, as one poster earlier suggested, the djinni adapt their appearances to the expectations of those they interact with. Or perhaps the humans mimic the djinni's social structure. Or perhaps the djinni emulate the human's culture for their own reasons.

Not sure if any of this is useful to the original poster or to the community, but there it is.
 

Did you read the OP? Because I made it clear that I don't really have a position yet. I'm leaning towards some of the options I presented (I think that opening up the monsters in their cultural presentation in certain worlds could be interesting and a positive addition to them), but I still see the flaws in all of the positions.
Yes, several times. But I don't know for sure I fully understand your position (which is why I said I was open to being corrected on your position). But I am happy to take a sincere crack at directly responding to a portion of it with my thoughts:

For me it feels uncomfortable to have Rakshasa and Genies be fantasy-counterpart Middle-Eastern/Indian people, but I also don't know if just taking the monsters out of their cultural context is cultural appropriation. Is it better to just not use the creatures if you don't have a Fantasy-Counterpart in your world of that culture in the first place? Maybe it would be better to just keep them in Al-Qadim and similar areas of certain D&D worlds instead of having them assumed to exist in most D&D worlds (Eberron, for example)? I honestly do not know the answer, and all of these answers seem a bit uncomfortable to me (at least at the moment).

Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?

I guess I don't quite fully understand your discomfort. In your own game has anyone expressed concern about how you are depicting these creatures? But if it bothers you, my advice would be not to use them. Whether you should be bothered, I suppose that is personal. If this is just a question that is limited to your own home game, and you aren't extending this further tacitly (for instance if there isn't an implication that others ought to share your concern), then I think there really isn't an easy way around this because the OP seems to indicate you are experiencing discomfort with all the possible options. What I would suggest, if you are on the fence here and struggling to decide is investigate much of a problem this really is, and if it is maybe just a theoretical one. Because the way it reads now it sort of has a damned if you do damned if you don't (in terms of going direction A or B with the monsters), and I think the only way presently that would probably avoid your discomfort is not using them at all. But then again, I think if your issue is one of being exclusionary or cruel in these depictions, not including them erases those cultures from the setting entirely (I don't think a setting where certain cultures don't exist is a problem, but for you that might present an issue, so that is why I am raising it here).
 

Irlo

Hero
This thread is not about offense, it's not about racism, it's not about changing how any of the books or official settings are written, and it's not about any sense of moral superiority/rules that people should have to adhere to. I really have no idea where you guys are coming up with this nonsense.
I agree so much that a "like" won't do, so I'm quoting this for emphasis.
 

guachi

Hero
It really struck me in that one thread where (presumably) an American publisher said they didn't include non-European mythology in their book to avoid 'cultural appropriation,' but apparently felt fine with claiming the whole Europe as their 'heritage'... :unsure:

America is closely linked to Europe by history, politics, ethnicity, language, and culture. The heritage of the United States of America is clearly European dominant.
 

Irlo

Hero
Instead of automatically being offended on another's behalf maybe research or discuss with relevant people to see if it is in fact racist or insulting. Others that are seeking to be offended on another's behalf and the professionally offended are not relevant people to get these answers when you seek to discuss with relevant parties. Members of culture/race in question or experts in involved topics are.
Being offended on another's behalf is not a thing. That's not what's happening here.
 

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