D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

[Bedrockgames]

If you can only see the deliberate, then you miss what a lot of minorities have to deal with. I don't know what to tell you other than you need to be able to look beyond, because if you only see the deliberate you are only seeing a small part of the picture. While you dismiss it as the equivalent of "conspiracy theorizing", your view comes across as a world where subtext doesn't exist.

Again, see my other post, but I think getting more into real world issues is going to get thorny as we've had several mod warnings. Suffice to say I understand the racial and identity issue better than you might think. But I don't we can really spend more effort on that front here.

In terms of subtext. Of course I believe subtext exists. I do however come from more of a history background and have always felt intent is an important consideration in reading subtext. Also whether something is an obvious message of a piece of media, versus a hidden one you have to tease out, I think matters a lot in terms of cultural importance (and believe me I love looking for esoteric meaning in films, literature, etc------I just don't think I put as much stock in the esoteric subtext as you might). Also I think some of these analytical lenses become self fulfilling. That is one reason why when it comes to the question of whether a work of art presents a problem, I think you need a much higher bar than 'it could be read this way'. And I do think there is a correlation to some of the kind of reasoning you see around certain types of media analysis and the stuff we saw in the 80s with concern over subliminal messages in music, the impact of heavy metal and rock n roll on culture, etc. Not only were a lot the ideas behind things like subliminal messaging completely wrong (both in terms of the subliminal messages being and in terms of the power such messages would have), but a lot of the analysis critics were doing of the music and its content stopped once they found the bad thing they wanted to find: they didn't examine the layers of meaning and put it into any kind of reasonable context that the listeners knew it had. So I am not against analysis or delving into subtext. I am wary of people who claim to decode media to find issues with it, and I am wary of just accepting their analysis (especially when it requires an advanced language and decoding system to even see the message that might be there).

 

[Justice and Rule]

Again, see my other post, but I think getting more into real world issues is going to get thorny as we've had several mod warnings. Suffice to say I understand the racial and identity issue better than you might think. But I don't we can really spend more effort on that front here.

In terms of subtext. Of course I believe subtext exists. I do however come from more of a history background and have always felt intent is an important consideration in reading subtext. Also whether something is an obvious message of a piece of media, versus a hidden one you have to tease out, I think matters a lot in terms of cultural importance (and believe me I love looking for esoteric meaning in films, literature, etc------I just don't think I put as much stock in the esoteric subtext as you might). Also I think some of these analytical lenses become self fulfilling. That is one reason why when it comes to the question of whether a work of art presents a problem, I think you need a much higher bar than 'it could be read this way'. And I do think there is a correlation to some of the kind of reasoning you see around certain types of media analysis and the stuff we saw in the 80s with concern over subliminal messages in music, the impact of heavy metal and rock n roll on culture, etc. Not only were a lot the ideas behind things like subliminal messaging completely wrong (both in terms of the subliminal messages being and in terms of the power such messages would have), but a lot of the analysis critics were doing of the music and its content stopped once they found the bad thing they wanted to find: they didn't examine the layers of meaning and put it into any kind of reasonable context that the listeners knew it had. So I am not against analysis or delving into subtext. I am wary of people who claim to decode media to find issues with it, and I am wary of just accepting their analysis (especially when it requires an advanced language and decoding system to even see the message that might be there).

Like, I feel like tying such things to "intent" misses casual stereotypes and the harms they do. Like, you should look up the discussion around calling an African-American person "articulate", because I feel like it shows how intent doesn't really matter.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Nope.

Fair enough. I'm not entitled to know. But if you don't say what you do want, and spend your time instead telling us what you don't, you're presenting yourself in a potentially negative way.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

The City of Brass has Arabesque architecture and it's ruled by a Grand Sultan, for Pelor's sake. And you know what that Sultan's name is? Marrake al-Sidan al-Hariq ben Lazan.

The Sultan's name in 4E was changed, for whatever reason, to Bashumgarda. I don't know off the top of my head if a name has been given for 5E.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Fair enough. I'm not entitled to know. But if you don't say what you do want, and spend your time instead telling us what you don't, you're presenting yourself in a potentially negative way.

I think it's worth noting that while it's good to have ideas about how to change thing, sometimes you can simply think something is wrong without having something in mind to fix it. Like, my solution was just something off the top of my head because you asked, so it's not going to be perfect. I can understand why some people don't want to put themselves out there when they haven't come up with a solution they've really thought about.

The Sultan's name in 4E was changed, for whatever reason, to Bashumgarda. I don't know off the top of my head if a name has been given for 5E.

I can believe that. I'm sure the FR's wiki info could be old, though still the point is that the Efreet are still obviously meant to be coded Arab.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, you can disagree with me all you want, but your point is "I don't think they meant that", which doesn't really address the fact that it's still there. And going for the historical defense is very weak given that this is a work of fiction and we can include anything and everything we want. But the only ones where even the good race all have slaves and it is an integral feature of them. At this point this all comes off as pleading not to look at what is directly in front of us, to ignore what our eyes see rather clearly.

I don't think it is ignoring what is in front of us. It is us all examining the same thing, looking at the same data, and reaching different conclusions. That is normal. People are different and assess media in different ways. I am not saying history justifies it being there (the thing that justifies it being there or not is if it works for the setting and adds something useful to it). But the history explains why it might be there. When we make fantasy settings we are usually drawing on historical examples for things like structures to institutions. To be the most likely explanation for why it is there, is they leaned heavily on that kind of source material while developing the Genie. As to why even the good genie have slaves, I don't know. I imagine that is also a byproduct of that, or possibly the byproduct of an involved conversation among the designers where it made some kind of sense to them. Like I said, I think having a good culture own slaves, is a bad idea just in terms of alignment (and again I can easily imagine a conversation that somehow got them there, just like we sometimes end up in very weird places from conversations on threads because logic leads us astray if any of our underlying premises are wrong). And more important, it is not at all clear to me, and to a number of other people in the thread that this is actual stereotype. But I certainly don't think that is why it is there. I think they decided to model genie culture on a particular set of historical examples, and those historical examples had slaves. I am not familiar enough with the realms to know if any other good society has slaves. But I think having good cultures that own slaves is odd given the alignment system.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But if you don't say what you do want, and spend your time instead telling us what you don't, you're presenting yourself in a potentially negative way.

Also nope.

I get paid for this stuff. Why would I give it away for free so someone can use it as ammo to prove I'm not sufficiently 'D&D' enough for an argument?

 

[Voadam]

There is the Harem and its association of Arabs and slave girls.

There is the Arab Slave Trade which was a big part of the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade.

There are the Mamluk slave soldiers.

Some will see a trope linking Arabs and slavery, some will not.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think it's worth noting that while it's good to have ideas about how to change thing, sometimes you can simply think something is wrong without having something in mind to fix it. Like, my solution was just something off the top of my head because you asked, so it's not going to be perfect. I can understand why some people don't want to put themselves out there when they haven't come up with a solution they've really thought about.



I can believe that. I'm sure the FR's wiki info could be old, though still the point is that the Efreet are still obviously meant to be coded Arab.

And if that's Vaalingrade's answer, I respect it. But they have stated in other threads that they have run many campaigns over the years, so I think it is reasonable to assume they do have a version of D&D they prefer.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Also nope.

I get paid for this stuff. Why would I give it away for free so someone can use it as ammo to prove I'm not sufficiently 'D&D' enough for an argument?

Didn't know you were a content creator. What do you make?