D&D 5E 5e* - D&D-now

[HammerMan]

DM The scouts draw their long knives, but they look nervous about dealing with you.
P We won’t hurt them if we don’t have to, but we have to pass. Initiative?
DM No need. You easily overcome the scouts and... what will you do with them?

I have done this and been told that players (and I get it) want the easy stomp battles sometimes. Something to help them feel powerful.
since then I have tried at least 2-3 times per campaign tried to set up a mirror fight from multi levels earlier, especially works good if it was a hard fight, that lets them breeze through it.
I even have in some times run things like max hp (instead of average) hobgoblins at level 3 or4 so that at level 8 or 9 I can rerun the same encounter with less than average hp so they can have 1 hard and 1 breeze just to give them the illusion of power.

Or, on an earlier occasion...
DM The dragon’s rises, it’s scales sure ward against your weapons. It has nothing to fear from you.
P I’m ready to fight regardless, I draw my longsword and attack!
DM The dragon tolerates a few meaningless blows then bounds over you, blocking your exit. It inhales... any last words?

I have never done this... but I expect someone would throw something at me...
especially since there have been times I have had players hit so far above there level that they have taken out encounters that would be deadly for 2-3 levels higher then them.

 

[clearstream]

I have done this and been told that players (and I get it) want the easy stomp battles sometimes. Something to help them feel powerful.
since then I have tried at least 2-3 times per campaign tried to set up a mirror fight from multi levels earlier, especially works good if it was a hard fight, that lets them breeze through it.
I even have in some times run things like max hp (instead of average) hobgoblins at level 3 or4 so that at level 8 or 9 I can rerun the same encounter with less than average hp so they can have 1 hard and 1 breeze just to give them the illusion of power.

Would you call those battles meaningful from the perspective of feelings of confirmation in the players of their characters' growing strength?

I have never done this... but I expect someone would throw something at me...
especially since there have been times I have had players hit so far above there level that they have taken out encounters that would be deadly for 2-3 levels higher then them.

As I wrote this one, I realised that 5e's bounded accuracy means that even wide gulfs between character level and CR can offer a sliver of a chance of success. I felt that was not in essence an objection to the example, because this must be one where no such sliver exists. If a sliver of a chance does exist, I think I would call for initiative!

 

[HammerMan]

Would you call those battles meaningful from the perspective of feelings of confirmation in the players of their characters' growing strength?

I don't know. My gut reaction is to say no they really are not meaningful... no more then RPing going to releave yourself, or wanting to buy 'good food' it can be fun and nor really meaningful... but, as I type this you may be right.

As I wrote this one, I realised that 5e's bounded accuracy means that even wide gulfs between character level and CR can offer a sliver of a chance of success. I felt that was not in essence an objection to the example, because this must be one where no such sliver exists. If a sliver of a chance does exist, I think I would call for initiative!

The problem is how do you gage such a thing? I have thrown CR 20+ creatures at parties in the 9-11th level range and seen them curb stomp it (not just beat it, but barely have any issue doing it) I have also watched in horror as 14th level characters started to fall to basic hobgoblins with decent (not even great) tactics and numbers... The math is VERY messed up. Even a deadly encounter (like I said before) meant to be deadly to levels above the party can become a breeze.

I mean I would think that if I dropped that new drago/elder brain thing with 2 illithid servants and a dozen mind controlled thralls into an area and my 7th level PCs (fighter,barbarian,rogue,warlock/bard) would avoid it... but if they choose to fight it I can not say I am 100% sure they would all die. (That barbarian is super high HP and min maxed, and the rogue is using an artifact short sword). Again my gut says that is a 'rocks fall everyone dies moment' but I can't be sure... I have not done the math but that might just be a deadly encounter by math for a party twice the level of my PCs, and I can't say I would be sure.

 

[billd91]

The problem is how do you gage such a thing? I have thrown CR 20+ creatures at parties in the 9-11th level range and seen them curb stomp it (not just beat it, but barely have any issue doing it) I have also watched in horror as 14th level characters started to fall to basic hobgoblins with decent (not even great) tactics and numbers... The math is VERY messed up. Even a deadly encounter (like I said before) meant to be deadly to levels above the party can become a breeze.

I would take this to mean the math isn't messed up at all because it doesn't leave things foregone conclusions.

 

[HammerMan]

I would take this to mean the math isn't messed up at all because it doesn't leave things foregone conclusions.

well that is the obiwan issue "From one point of view"

but i mostly agree. It means I can accidently kill a PC with a few lucky/unlucky rolls in the same campaign where I watch my player body slam a tarrasque at level 4 (that's a joke)

 

[clearstream]

The problem is how do you gage such a thing? I have thrown CR 20+ creatures at parties in the 9-11th level range and seen them curb stomp it (not just beat it, but barely have any issue doing it) I have also watched in horror as 14th level characters started to fall to basic hobgoblins with decent (not even great) tactics and numbers... The math is VERY messed up. Even a deadly encounter (like I said before) meant to be deadly to levels above the party can become a breeze.

Your first line there (that I bolded) makes me think about the distinction between rule and rule-following. A basic definition of a rule is anything that can be followed such that:

a) our having, grasp or use of it can play a role in generating and explaining our action.
b) our actions can accord or discord with it;

But it was quickly realised that there was also this:

c) performing rule-constituted actions is compatible with doing so more or less well, and even breaking the rule

Otherwise one wouldn't be permitted to play Chess badly, and footballers would automatically cease to be playing football when they foul (rather than just incurring a penalty). Your concern is a fair one, but we are only admonished to DM as well as we can... wherever possible. We don't cease playing 5e* (or 5e) just because of difficulties in gauging challenge.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Would you call those battles meaningful from the perspective of feelings of confirmation in the players of their characters' growing strength?

I think the only meaning one can derive from a basically pointless (in terms of there being any doubt of the outcome) fight is simply that people have come associate a specific set of behaviors with playing, and if those specific forms are not present then something is missed. It is a 'form over function' kind of thing. The players and GM COULD simply collectively generate some appropriate fiction, that is pretty close to what they will do ANYWAY, even with dice in this case! The FORM of tossing the dice around just has to be there for some people. I can honestly say I was never that sort of person. I'd be happy with the unvarnished narrative version, and get the same sort of feeling out of it, personally.

As I wrote this one, I realised that 5e's bounded accuracy means that even wide gulfs between character level and CR can offer a sliver of a chance of success. I felt that was not in essence an objection to the example, because this must be one where no such sliver exists. If a sliver of a chance does exist, I think I would call for initiative!

Meh, if you have to get 12 20's in a row, and AVOID 11 1's (and get the initiative, lol) to win, that's not even a sliver, that's "it happened once in all of the history of all the games of D&D that will ever be played from now to the heat death of the Universe." Obviously there's SOME sort of cut off, but I would expect long before you're in the "any real chance to win" realm you are perhaps going to at least enter the "I have some hope of escaping with my life" realm. THAT we can play dice for!

But would I run this scenario? Yes, actually, under certain conditions. If playing to find out what happens finally lead here, or the players commitment to have their PC play out some quirk of character or act on some all-consuming impulse was so strong, who am I to deny its final expression? I mean, were it not fraught with any kind of drama, then it would indeed be rather pointless, and falls into the same category as inevitable victories.

 

[Shardstone]

What if a rule stated that Incorporating the DMs description into your combat description added a mechanical bonus like +3 damage?

 

[Mordhau]

What if a rule stated that Incorporating the DMs description into your combat description added a mechanical bonus like +3 damage?

I've played in games with rules like that in the past.

I found they're fun for a little while, but it becomes a drag. The fact is that it still doesn't really matter what you describe as long as you describe something - so you end up going through the motions.

Plus with D&D focusing too much on what's physically happening in the combat just ends up highlighting the unreal absurdity of the rules.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

What if a rule stated that Incorporating the DMs description into your combat description added a mechanical bonus like +3 damage?

OK, though it seems like a fairly crude approach. I guess, given that we're talking about 5e, more sophisticated approaches are off the table because "it wasn't done that way in 1974" basically (and anyway you'd have to rewrite half of 5e to do much that isn't roughly your suggestion, mechanically).