Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions

[Mannahnin]

I appreciate the helpful correction! Unfortunately, my brain already knows I engage in this homophobe fail with regularity. I’ve been doing it for probably 2 decades or so. It’s weird thing but there is no uptake on the course correction. I guarantee you will continue to see me type martial at a frequency neither of us will be pleased with!

Ah! I have one or two similar linguistic quirks. My sympathies!

 

[Manbearcat]

Alright, JOURNEY LEG 2

My approach to all Journey decision-points in RPGs (at least when they're supposed to be sites of conflict, like this..otherwise, I elide them) is to (a) provide a decision-point (b) that always yields different consequences and (c) sometimes (system-dependent) features different inputs to action resolution based on approach.

So the PCs are at the trail-head and have a decision to make for the 2nd Leg of their Journey:

1 - Well-trod trail (1 Factor) that winds and switches back along the undulating terrain and is the equivalent of a long hike (3 Factor) with a lot of exposure to wind/rain. This is Obs4 and the consequence on the line here being Exhausted (-1 Disposition to Conflicts and can't use Instinct for free).

vs

2 - Shortcut for the equivalent of "nearby" (1 Factor) but is infrequently used (2 Factor) because of the constant threat of packs of hunting Dire Wolves (Might 3 Creatures with a higher Might Pack Leader). So this is only Obs3 but the risk is a dangerous and potentially costly Flee or Kill Conflict with a pack of Dire Wolves.


Well, they "didn't want that smoke" of the Dire Wolves, so they elected the long and exposed hike over the shortcut. Obs4 Test. So, they go with this formulation:

* Karolina and Taika each have 3 Pathfinder. However, Taika has Tracks-Wise so she'll use I Am Wise here to help her friend follow the well trod footpath. This gives Karolina the same +1d from Help but it insulates Taika from getting a Condition on a failure.

* Aile doesn't have any Skill or Wise to help here, but this falls within his Nature descriptor Running (he has spent a large amount of his life on trails through frozen, exposed, and trackless wilderness like this so he'll galvanize the group's mental resiliency with his disposition and capableness throughout the trek).

* I give them a Persona and Fate point for the first Adventure. Karolina's PC doesn't want to eat the Exhausted Condition this early and doesn't want Aile to eat Hungry and Thirsty due to helping (which he would resolve via marking off 1 Ration or 1 use of Waterskin), so they spend their Persona Point to Channel Within Their Nature (Running descriptor). This lets them add their 3d from their Nature to their dice pool (with no risk of Taxing Nature - reducing Nature when you act outside of it).


So the total dice pool is 8d vs Obs4 Pathfinder test w/ the following on the line; success or success but Karolina - Exhausted, Alie - Hungry and Thirsty, and Taika - insulated from Condition.

They get their 4 Successes. The trek is long, arduous, and cold as hell, but they get to their destination in good spirits/order. We elide a cozy camp and handle their next (and final) Leg of their Journey.


* Of note, Karolina has Cartographer 2 and in Pouch 2 she has Supplies for this (charcoal, parchment). 2 days of Journey is a Factor of 2 and if you're on site its +1. So at the end of these 2 Legs she's going to expend her Supplies (+1d and that Pouch Slot is now open) and test Cartographer vs Obs3 because she'll be mapping these two Wilderness Legs from 4 to 8. Success there means that future Journeys that chart this course get automatically elided (the equivalent of "fast travel" in modern video game parlance) so long as (a) they have the map and light to read it and (b) the situation of this region hasn't substantially changed.

 

[niklinna]

I appreciate the helpful correction! Unfortunately, my brain already knows I engage in this homophone fail with regularity. I’ve been doing it for probably 2 decades or so. It’s weird thing but there is no uptake on the course correction. I guarantee you will continue to see me type martial at a frequency neither of us will be pleased with!

EDIT - Also, N is right next to B and your phone won't autocorrect to homophone! Note this for the future folks!

Think of the 't' in martial as a little sword to commit your martial acts, and the 's' in marshal as a squiggly bandolier that you use to marshal your resources.

(N is next to B, and the space bar is right below both of them. Grumble.)

 

[pemerton]

The game is always difficult and it can always spiral and get away from you regardless of how safe you are, but there is are a few exhales built-in.

<snip>

There are so many resources to call upon to manipulate your dice pools. I won't mention them all, but there is a huge array. Managing those and using them wisely for key Tests is as intuitive as a thing gets in terms of importance on Skilled Play. The other aspect is managing the fiction and the attendant risk of Helping to augment dice pools.

<snip>

There is a fairly significant gap between unskillful and skillful play in Torchbearer. I don't agree that play is cruel. Its just enormously demanding.

The descent from Burning Wheel is very evident in these features of the system. The main difference, at least as it looks to me at this stage of my reading and reflection, is in the consequence rules. Also there are no FoRKs; which makes teamwork all the more important.

Managing the sort of Pictionary + Rock/Paper/Scissors of Conflicts is extremely important.

There's an amusing remark in the Scholar's Guide (p 231):

Beware that it is possible for you to kill the characters in the first conflict. Cavalier players will often charge heedlessly into a pack of skeletal tomb guardians and try to destroy them. That is a kill conflict. Even though the tomb guardians are Might 2 (to the adventurers’ Might 3), they can still kill the characters if they get lucky.

With this in mind, we recommend you play conservatively in early conflicts. Stick to Attacks and Maneuvers. Do not bust out tricky Feints on the third action just yet.​

For those who haven't thought it through: a tempting script for players is Attack/Attack/Defend - ie try to land some blows and then recover at the end of the round. A third action Feint from the GM will negate that Defend and get in some free damage!

In Burning Wheel, the GM is encouraged to script for NPCs and monsters in a manner that reflects their Beliefs, Instincts and Traits even if not fully rational. So far the closest I've found to that in Torchbearer is this, from the Scholar's Guild (p 174):

A monster’s instinct is provided for you as guidance on how to play the monster. Monsters don’t have to test to do mundane things. They just do them (within reason of course). In fact, the game master rolls dice for a monster only when opposing a character. That’s it. So instincts are listed here to help you better portray the beast.​

The Tomb Guardians are Mindless, and have the Nature Descriptors Guarding, Pursuing, Slaying the Living and the instinct Never leave the tomb unguarded. That makes me feel like their default script should be Defend (guarding the tomb), Manoeuvre (impeding and positioning), Attack (driving back the intruders). So if I was a player against my conception of Tomb Guardians the best script would be Feint/Attack/Defend. Or maybe Feint/Feint/Defend if we're feeling lucky. Depending on the type of conflict, that could be enough for a one-round victory.

I don't agree that adventurers are scum to start off play. Its never been that in a game I've run. Overwhelmingly, the games I've run have featured a world under extreme duress so the stratification of society isn't well-positioned to scarlet letter a lot of folks with "scum."

I think the clearest statement of this is in the opening of the Dungeoneer's Handbook (pp 6-7, in a section entitled "Born to Lose"):

Adventurer is a dirty word. You’re a scoundrel, a villain, a wastrel, a vagabond, a criminal, a sword-for-hire, a cutthroat.

Respectable people belong to guilds or the church or are born into nobility. Or barring all that, they’re salt of the earth and till the land for the rest of us.

Your problem is that you’re none of that. You’re a third child or worse. You can’t get into a guild - too many apprentices already. You’re sure as hell not nobility - even if you were, your older brothers and sisters have soaked up the inheritance. And if you’re cursed with visions from the Immortals, the temples won’t take you in. You question their authority and subvert their power, so you are outcast like the rest of us.

And if you ever entertained romantic notions of homesteading, think again. You’d end up little more than a slave to a wealthy noble.

So there’s naught for you but to make your own way. There’s a certain freedom to it, but it’s a hard life. Cash flows out of your hands as easily as the blood from your wounds.

But at least it’s your life.

And if you’re lucky, smart and stubborn, you might come out on top. There’s a lot of lost loot out there for the finding. And salvage law is mercifully generous. You find it, it’s yours to spend, sell or keep.​

This seems to be reinforced by the designer notes on the Noble Scion class in the Scavenger's Supplement (p 35):

The Scion class is an advanced option for Torchbearer play, as it is difficult and problematic in a number of ways. First, it breaks the game’s primary conceit—that our characters are regular people down on their luck, cursed by the Immortals and forced into a series of bad choices. The scion is making a bad choice because they were born a fool. Second, the Superior trait is not a point of fact, but a matter of self-perception. No one is inherently superior to anyone, especially not in Torchbearer.​

The word "scum" might be a bit laden, but something like it seems right. The remarks about superiority are very REH Conan, and PCs (except for Noble Scions) start at the bottom of the social hierarchy and make their living by disregarding all social norms.

 

[pemerton]

On Adventure Difficulty

The books have robust advice on this

I would say it is not as robust as 4e D&D. It's not clear what makes an adventure 1st level or 2nd level, for instance. (Travel to the location isn't a factor in the two adventures I've looked at so far in the Cartographer's Compendium.)

At least on first reading, Tower of Stars - the 1st level adventure in the Compendium - seems quite a bit easier than The Dread Crypt of Skogenby, which is the introductory adventure in the Scholar's Guide.

I was amused to see Thelon's Rift in the Compendium. I first encountered this adventure in the BW Adventure Burner, where it was presented as an example of a "microdungeon". It's interesting to see the trajectory from Thor's Burning THACO pdf (which seems like it's no longer available) through "microdungeoneering" to Torchbearer.

The two biggest changes in Thelon's Rift between versions: the Torchbearer treatment of the stone face is more inspired; but I miss the BW version's remark (paraphrasing from memory) that "A Duel of Wits over what to do with the Orb is not only acceptable, it's encouraged. In fact it's traditional!"

PvP seems like a very high-risk proposition in Torchbearer.

 

[Fenris-77]

I'll be following this thread with interest. I never got to more than dabble with TB1, and I'm going to dive in for the full suite of TB2 stuff today anyway. If nothing else the game seems like a worthy topic of study in terms of tight playloop design.

 

[Bill Zebub]

One of my dissatisfactions with 5e is that you rarely stress about resources. Light, food, water, and rest can all be achieved too easily through magic (even cantrips) and character abilities. So I find there's very little resource tension in the game.*

But I like that sort of tension. So maybe I should check out TB.

*As distinct from plot tension.

 

[Fenris-77]

One of my dissatisfactions with 5e is that you rarely stress about resources. Light, food, water, and rest can all be achieved too easily through magic (even cantrips) and character abilities. So I find there's very little resource tension in the game.*

But I like that sort of tension. So maybe I should check out TB.

*As distinct from plot tension.

This is one of the main reasons that I've drifted away from 5E and into the murky depths of the OSR.

 

[Fenris-77]

Quick question, are the 2e PDFs on the TB website the final PDFs or the playtest PDFs? I'm not dropping $100 on playtest content....

Edit: They are the full PDFs, not playtest. Just in case anyone else is curious.

 

[darkbard]

Quick question, are the 2e PDFs on the TB website the final PDFs or the playtest PDFs? I'm not dropping $100 on playtest content....

Edit: They are the full PDFs, not playtest. Just in case anyone else is curious.

But the HCs are only available to original KS backers?