Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Gradine]

Let's be clear- comeliness has nothing to do with OA.

Here's the problem; this isn't correct at all. OA didn't invent or introduce comeliness; but it was deliberately included as part of the setting and system, and that is an issue for the reasons they describe.

It can seem like racialized beauty stereotypes aren't that important, but it's actually a pretty big deal for quite a lot of people.

Here's some additional example, mainly from the perspective of black women:
Beauty and Body Image Concerns Among African American College Women

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Here's the problem; this isn't correct at all. OA didn't invent or introduce comeliness; but it was deliberately included as part of the setting and system, and that is an issue for the reasons they describe.

No. That's just wrong. At that specific time, they were in process of moving to using comeliness officially, and the two released books at that time, UA and OA both had it.

In fact, if you looked at the text for comeliness in the two books, you will find that they are identical (absent a few changes, such as removing specific spells and using the term "illusion" instead).

It wasn't included as part of the setting; instead, the setting used it since it was now part of the game.

It can seem like racialized beauty stereotypes aren't that important, but it's actually a pretty big deal for quite a lot of people.

Here's some additional example, mainly from the perspective of black women:

Beauty and Body Image Concerns Among African American College Women

Yes, beauty and body standards are incredibly fraught.

That's why the stat is rightfully done away with. But, again, this has absolutely nothing to do with OA. This continued insistence that it does (and, again, it's on page 10 so you can look yourself if you have a copy) is bizarre, ahistorical, and it's the kind of thing that gives some people pause.

 

[Voadam]

I think wholly aside from the question of accuracy in historically inspired works, there should be a strong disincentive to be grossly offensive, which I think the happy slave example would fall under. So too would several other areas of history could be classed as such. Minimizing or justifying the holocaust for instance. Causing gross offense isn’t the same as doing something we disapprove of though and the bar should be set accordingly.

On a separate note, two of the areas of criticism of OA seem substantiated to me.

- The portrayal of all Asians as honourable to the point of self destruction, unable to exercise free will, perpetrating wicked (though honourable) acts even to the extent of psychosis.

- The depiction of women in the artwork as beguiling and erotic. (Admittedly a problem with plenty of other products it feels like 3e OA was still bad even when these things were rare in standard products of the same time)View attachment 151120

3e OA, right. Not 1e OA.

I don't own 3e OA so I won't comment on its depictions of honor or its overall art.

1e OA is very scant with its art. There are very few pictures of people at all. Here is the one picture of a woman from 1e OA spells section.

I did not care for the 1e OA honor system at all. The feudal samurai honor system was very culturally specific and would seem a bad fit for a lot of D&D, including the non-fantasy feudal Japanese parts of Kara Tur. I find most honor/renown/alignment systems and codes of conduct in RPGs are not to my taste.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I did not care for the 1e OA honor system at all. The feudal samurai honor system was very culturally specific and would seem a bad fit for a lot of D&D, including the non-fantasy feudal Japanese parts of Kara Tur. I find most honor/renown/alignment systems and codes of conduct in RPGs are not to my taste.

I think it was modeled after the similar system (on?) in Busido, which was published a few years before that.

But yeah, having an "honor system" for OA, but not for feudal knights and Paladins? Definitely sus.

 

[Alzrius]

I think it was modeled after the similar system (on?) in Busido, which was published a few years before that.

But yeah, having an "honor system" for OA, but not for feudal knights and Paladins? Definitely sus.

There should have been a similar system for paladins, at the very least, although I suppose you could look at their code of conduct as a sort of proto-honor system under the game rules (even if it was little more than "mess up once and you're done").

Fun fact: I mentioned this back in my overview of the book, but HR3 Celts (affiliate link) also had an honor system ("enech"), which seemed like a transplant of the rules from OA in many regards, such as the rating going from 0 to 100, and if you lost all of your enech then your character was retired.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'm sure Asians Read has a lot of really good information in it, but not 3 minutes in on the first video and Daniel and Steve are assuming whether or not someone who worked on the book was Asian based on their name. "Kim Mohan is Asian". Um, no he's not. And your names are "Daniel" and "Steve" but unless someone has an Asian name they must not be Asian?

If you're gonna analyze a book, especially around racial/ethnic/cultural contexts, I would expect not falling into the same stereotypes and assumptions you're there to address. Assuming people are white based on their name is....problematic.

 

[Mallus]

It can seem like racialized beauty stereotypes aren't that important, but it's actually a pretty big deal for quite a lot of people.

Is this the work of colonizers?

 

[Willie the Duck]

But I think you're aware of the textual criticism, despite your protests to the contrary here. That's all.

There certainly seem to be criticisms with quotes out there. Although we here are having a hard time coming up with concrete examples. Did anyone keep their copy? I might have to check the attic just to see if I can find mine and look for examples.

I think it was modeled after the similar system (on?) in Busido, which was published a few years before that.

But yeah, having an "honor system" for OA, but not for feudal knights and Paladins? Definitely sus.

That certainly seems to be a huge part of it. Stuff that, if they included in the Quasi-feudal faux-European default version, probably wouldn't be notable (both games having honor mechanics would have, imo, still been a mistake).
Another example I'm thinking of is that, IIRC, a completely non-magical martial artist could train themselves to be able to balance on the edge of a bowl, gradually removing the water in it, until they could make themselves effectively weightless for purposes of triggering traps or such. Now, if that were to come up in 5e (where preternatural abilities aren't necessarily gated by spells and the like), it wouldn't be notable. However, in 1e (where the DMG admonishes against letting a thief climb a rock wall if it is remotely slick or the like), it is a notable difference in how mystic the game treats people.

 

[Irlo]

There certainly seem to be criticisms with quotes out there. Although we here are having a hard time coming up with concrete examples. Did anyone keep their copy? I might have to check the attic just to see if I can find mine and look for examples.


I have a copy. What do you want to know? I’m happy to share when I have time.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I was just hoping to get some of those direct textual references TerraDave was suggesting were absent in the comment "There is very little reference to the actual text...whatever it might be."