Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

Status
Not open for further replies.
But what are your thoughs...was it that bad back in ye olden times?
I think it would have been served better by being titled "Katanas & Kung Fu" which would have helped communicate the Japanese Samurai focus with the secondary dash of Chinese/Hong Kong martial arts.

Here is a quick review of its contents.

OA is an alternate AD&D mostly Player's Handbook with a mostly fantasy Japanese samurai focus and a bit of fantasy China. It is filled with mechanics like alternate base classes and races, weapons, and armor, new spells, and monsters.

It adds to AD&D with these alternates but also the Non Weapon Proficiencies mechanic, an honor system, and a fantastic martial arts system.

It has a bunch of pages on mostly fantasy feudal Japan type culture and economy and agriculture and such. It provides about two pages on a four nation continent of Kara Tur which has a big Fantasy China empire, a smaller breakaway China empire (fantasy Taiwan) and two Fantasy Japan Island nations, one unified, one split into warring factions.

I did not care for the honor system, similar to most alignment and honor systems it does not look like it adds fun elements except in very specific setups and it does not fit in well with most D&D. I was glad it was fairly easy to ignore when using most of the rest.

I feel the martial arts system is the best D&D has had, it is flavorful with fun effective mechanics and fits into the normal AD&D system well. It abstracts things to a nice level dividing styles into hard/soft/and mixed with options for martial art powers/techniques along different themes to make up different styles or for you to create your own.

If you want samurai and ninjas and sword saints and temple guards and yakuza and different spellcasters this gave options with a definite fantasy Japanese take. If you want a Chinese Shao lin monk mostly outside the honor system it can do that, though AD&D monks were still pretty poor (thanks to hp and attack roll issues) even with the addition of the martial arts system.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

I don't know if asking if Oriental Adventures was really that racist is a particularly important question. That racist compared to what? There are certainly valid criticisms of its contents and its probably best to just address those rather than trying to figure out how racist it was/is. I think OA is a pretty good book, but many of the criticisms levied against it are certainly valid and were I to make a similar game product today I would heed those criticisms.
 

Speaking as a non-white gamer, I think that any time you go seeking racism in RPG material, you will find it, because RPGs are, at their core, about stereotypes. And stereotypes are, by today's standards, racist.

Personally, I think we need to be careful about such things, lest we throw the baby out with the bathwater. This is a hobby, intended to entertain. There are, IMO, far more important venues to consider.
 

Speaking as a non-white gamer, I think that any time you go seeking racism in RPG material, you will find it, because RPGs are, at their core, about stereotypes. And stereotypes are, by today's standards, racist.
I'd say RPGs are more about pastiches than stereotypes, but your larger point still stands.
 


I enjoyed Oriental Adventures when it first came out, but being half Japanese and enlightened onto the culture more than many, I found many "mistakes" and concepts taken out of context, which kind of rubbed me the wrong way - not any racist notions, but outright mistakes. Which encouraged me to create my own version, which I eventually did as the Kaidan setting of Japanese Horror (PFRPG). Unlike OA, it only references Japanese culture, religion and mythology, not any other Asian culture, which I have much less understanding of...
 

So, @GreyLord - if I'm parsing what you said correctly, your Japanese (Japanese American? I'm not sure) friends have no problems with Oriental Adventures and that makes it not racist?

Well, that's a take I suppose. But, considering that the entire problem with OA is that it pretty much wipes away all cultures from Asia, except Japanese culture and makes Japanese culture the primary culture of the setting, I'm not really sure that "doesn't offend Japanese people" is really the bar that we need to clear.

The question was asked, why is OA a problem. The question was answered. Whether or not is a problem for a specific person isn't really the question.

Frankly, "I have some Japanese friends who aren't offended" isn't really much of an argument.

Perhaps not, but as they are the key element, and most of those saying they are offended are White guys or of white descent...I'd say it is somewhat pertinent.

What is INTERESTING is the divide, even in the US regarding this.

There is an OA written for 5e currently, it was WRITTEN by a JAPANESE individual.

The question is, who is racist then. There are Americans who probably would be offended by it, but are they then going to claim a Japanese person is racist against the Japanese? Half the Asian-Americans who would be offended are actually only PARTIAL Asian in the first place, and MOST of them have never EVEN BEEN to Asia.

The problem in general is an AMERICAN one, and it's divided at that. Those offended are trying to PROJECT what they think eveyone should feel on EVERYONE else, including those who are NOT American.

NOW THAT's FAR more offensive to those I know of Japanese and Chinese descent than anything found in OA...honestly speaking.

The funny thing is that this isn't even a factor for most of those living in Asia. 99% of them haven't even heard of this book, BUT THEY HAVE heard about the protests regarding Hong Kong films and Japanese culture as well as Chinese culture and calling it racist. Why people are calling products MADE in Asia BY Asians as racist against Asians in America is perhaps one of the MOST INFURIATING items that they see sometimes.

I mean, one of my best friends is Japanese American, and if I put him and his comments in this thread (currently he's sitting right next to me), you guys would probably try to cancel him out immediately. He SEES why Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians would have problems with OA (because, it IS basically just a Japanese hollywood culture blanket on everything, rather than using other cultures or representing them). However, he does NOT agree that it's racist and really DISLIKES the representation that ONE GUY on youtube is trying to paint on ALL Asian-Americans.

The BIGGEST issue I think is white people are willing to listen to that ONE Asian voice which they sympathize with, but ignore a WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHERS who say...that doesn't represent us, that's not who we are or how we think.

The problem HE sees is that this action is trying to cancel out the contributions of actual Asians. IN fact, a LOT of this movement seems to be directed at cancelling out contributions Asians have made in various parts of the industry (as I mentioned, this book is one of the ONLY contributions from Asians in all of D&D for over 20 years, and with the number of Asian contributors was one of the products with the BIGGEST number of minorities contributing, though in a very small manner, in RPGs for many years) in the past. THAT bothers him a LOT more than what is in the book, because to him, it seems many are trying to cancel out Asian contributions and voices over the years.

This is a HOT issue though. OA relatively has no impact on the larger issue which is currently ongoing in East Asian-American culture today. There are much bigger items which have contributions by Asian-Americans in the past which are trying to be cancelled out today, and that actually bothers quite a number of them. What bothers them more is that there are Asian-Americans calling out to cancel much of this stuff, but to him and others like him, those individuals are actuallly just being USED by whites without even realizing it.

They don't want to be ERASED from history. They don't want their contributions ERASED from history. I think that's what bothers the older generation the most in relation to the younger generations. The younger generations that are jumping on board with this stuff don't realize that a LOT of it is simply an effort to erase any Asian-American influences from the past, and the contributions of Asian-Americans right along with them.

Japanese traditionally have been excited about parts of their culture being sent around the world and raising the notability of Japan (ninja's for example. They weren't what we see in American culture, but that aspect of hollywood has been taken and promoted by Japanese since then in many ways).

Japan may be only one part of Asia, but it IS part of Asia rather than being part of Canada or North America.

Edit: This is NOT to put down the issues, but to point out that this is a controversial item. There are DIFFERENT opinions on the matter that are voiced by different groups of people. It seems only ONE group is actually being listened to. I think it (OA) could be viewed as racist today in many ways, but that doesn't mean it is NECESSARILY viewed that way and only that way. I think that what we see in regards to OA is merely a reflection of a MUCH LARGER item going on today within North America, and the struggles many are going through in relation to how Asian-American culture is accepted, how it has been presented in the past, and the ongoing struggle against CURRENT racism against Asian-Americans in the Americas today. Over the past two years it has been at an all time high due to certain world events, and it's not been easy for many of them with the racism that's been directed towards them.

In that light, I think there will be views on both sides of the matter making the question of whether it is racist today or not one with a multi-dimensional aspect to it. It's hard to consider all those aspects because at times, they are on opposite ends of each other, even while those same people may agree on fighting against racism as a whole.
 
Last edited:


Challenging moderation
Hey, TerraDave, I understand you find references to the original work lacking. But maybe you'd like t contribute something constructive to the discussion beyond that observation?
Hey, Umbran.

Posters are now comparing K-pop stars to divisive American political figures.

Maybe you can shut down the thread?
 

So, they got a fact wrong there. However, that the mechanic was not made for that purpose does not mean that the mechanic is not problematic in the OA context. There's still a solid argument that, given the stereotype issues, Comeliness should have been left out of OA.

And it's a great example of intent vs. effect. The argument against Comeliness being a problem seems to boil down to, "Anybody who regularly read Dragon Magazine would know that this wasn't just an OA thing." Ok, sure, but for all those people who played D&D but did not read Dragon Magazine, it sure looked like it was a new thing in OA.

Did TSR include it because of the exotic/effeminate thing? Doesn't really matter.

As they say, appearances matter.

(See what I did there?)
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top