BookTenTiger
He / Him
Or collaborate!
-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?
- Thread starter ryu289
- Start date
- Status
Haiku Elvis
Knuckle-dusters, glass jaws and wooden hearts.
OK for what it's worth I have decided to add my 2 cents to the mix. It's a long thread so forgive me for not going back to quote or react to particular posts. I am probably saying some things quite similar to some posters but I think/hope not just repeating what has been said before.
I'll start of with some generalisations but I'll say up front, not being Asian, my points of reference are having lived in Japan for 10 years teching English (so area of expertise "Japanese people's oppinions on Japanese representation in western movies 2001-11" only. I am unable to speak about other Asian people's views or asian-americans views of any kind with any authority. ) and my wife being Native American living in the UK and dealing with native american representation. (proper Native American not Elizabeth Warren native american. One of her cousins is the Chief and her family have a swamp on the reservation named after them. She says it's not a swamp but I've driven through it - its a swamp.)
First the generalisations- you abuse it you lose it.
Your friend saying "what are you doing you idiot?" and the bully who has been making yor life a misery for years shouting "what are you doing you idiot?" at you are two very different things. You can't seperate things from the context or history even if you were not responsible. I mean I'm British and I can confirm I have invaded and colonised exactly zero countries/territories or lands in my life (I know I've been letting the side down) but I can't ignore that people from history who had a shared identification with me did do those things and the culture I live in inherited a lot of it's structure/wealth/language/food from those same people. If I am fictionally dealing with a culture that had been abused in the past by Britain I'd need to be very careful how I would deal with that and how it would come accross, whereas I could get away with more if it was about say Sweden as they probably wouldn't care so much and the bad history isnt there.
Very generally dominant cultures/peoples views on other cultures peoples views ran/run along the lines of
(NB please read the following quotes in the voice of Matt Berry for full effect)
"I say you're names for things are difficult to say so I'm just going to call them what I think they should be called as I don't care enough about you and your culture to bother learning them, hurrah!"
"You say this area has many different peoples with long and unique cultures and history that are as different as my country is from it's neighbours. Well maybe but I don't care enough about you and your cultures to learn and you all look the same so I'll pick a few random things that have stuck in my mind add in a few crude sterotypes and assume it applies to the whole lot of you in what ever way makes me feel good. Hurrah!"
" As you needed me to actually name your own things properly as well as your tendancy to be <insert crude sterotype I just asigned to you> it's clear you need people like me to make decisions for you. Please be aware I dont care enough to check if they are correct or not I'll make them entirely based on what I like. Hurrah! "
Imagine years later someone from that same culture came to you saying.
" I've made a fictionalised version of your part of the world as I really like your culture. "
OK so far so good.
" Yeah I've just changed the names of everything to make it sound more fantasy and I've mixed your history up with that other country you don't like as the people who'll read it don't know the difference.
Plus I just made some bits up so its more like people would expect from xxxx part of the world. "
and you can maybe see why it would just seem like more of the same thing to someone whose culture had been on the recieving end of that sort of stereotyping but not bother someone whose culture hadn't.
This is why those using a mixed European setting as a counterweight argument to asian depictions aren't making a like for like comparison. Europe as a whole never had that done to it by people whose descendents are now making up fantasy versions with out the malice of yesteryear and with good intentions but still similar levels of lack of care or empathy.
Moving to specifics. My wife is regularly confronted with images of Native American culture often in advertising that is to be honest the equivalent of sticking someone in a grass skirt with a bone through their nose or doing kung fu with big sleeves and a long mustache. I have come to the conclusion that British people generally, due to a lack of interaction with genuine Native americans and only ever seeing them in fictional form despite knowing they are real on a factual level, instinctively lump them in with pirates and ninjas and wizards and treat them accordingly.
My wife actually met an organiser of a number of festivals and after talking to her he banned people selling fake native american headdresses at the festivals he ran. Quite a few people complained using some of the arguments I've seen on here." It's not supposed to be serious" or "people can buy roman or spartan costumes so what's the difference" etc.
But frankly if 99% of the worlds population only know your culture at all through crude, innacurate, careless portrayals in movies made by the descendants of the people that repeatedly kicked your ancestors off their land (the ones they didn't kill). Movies which portray you as the baddies and the people that massacred you as the heroes to boot. Then having to see a stoned out welly clad hipster wearing a bastardisation of one your cultures highest symbols of dignity and reverance whilst swigging flat lager and cod philosophising on the oneness of nature in between performances of washed out landfill indie bands is more that anyone should be asked to bare.
Going back to Asia more specifically using Japan as a bellwether for anything pan-asian even if designed to be mainly Japanese inspired, isnt a good idea as it again asumes it's all kinda the same thing. Ask a Japanese person if the term "Asiajin" (Asian person) in Japanese includes Japanese people and they'll be offended.
Japanese people like the British judge a lot of their standing in the world based on how much attention the US gives them and tend to be quite forgiving with how it is portrayed.
The Last Samurai was very popular in Japan despite the inaccuracies and the whole white saviour thing as the japanese characters were portrayed well and the actors in it got a lot of respect and attention in the US. Whereas in the same year Lost in Translation was greeted kind of negatively as it is based on the premise of ooh look Japan is so strange, which was kind of insulting to a lot of Japanese people and Memoires of a Geisha shortly afterwards went down like a lead balloon after they cast a Chinese actoress in the main role but the book had been fairly popular.
Getting actual Japanese people to test your game is good but assuming that means it's then Asian approved is just another way of saying "but you're all the same aren't you" when you get down to it.
I'll start of with some generalisations but I'll say up front, not being Asian, my points of reference are having lived in Japan for 10 years teching English (so area of expertise "Japanese people's oppinions on Japanese representation in western movies 2001-11" only. I am unable to speak about other Asian people's views or asian-americans views of any kind with any authority. ) and my wife being Native American living in the UK and dealing with native american representation. (proper Native American not Elizabeth Warren native american. One of her cousins is the Chief and her family have a swamp on the reservation named after them. She says it's not a swamp but I've driven through it - its a swamp.)
First the generalisations- you abuse it you lose it.
Your friend saying "what are you doing you idiot?" and the bully who has been making yor life a misery for years shouting "what are you doing you idiot?" at you are two very different things. You can't seperate things from the context or history even if you were not responsible. I mean I'm British and I can confirm I have invaded and colonised exactly zero countries/territories or lands in my life (I know I've been letting the side down) but I can't ignore that people from history who had a shared identification with me did do those things and the culture I live in inherited a lot of it's structure/wealth/language/food from those same people. If I am fictionally dealing with a culture that had been abused in the past by Britain I'd need to be very careful how I would deal with that and how it would come accross, whereas I could get away with more if it was about say Sweden as they probably wouldn't care so much and the bad history isnt there.
Very generally dominant cultures/peoples views on other cultures peoples views ran/run along the lines of
(NB please read the following quotes in the voice of Matt Berry for full effect)
"I say you're names for things are difficult to say so I'm just going to call them what I think they should be called as I don't care enough about you and your culture to bother learning them, hurrah!"
"You say this area has many different peoples with long and unique cultures and history that are as different as my country is from it's neighbours. Well maybe but I don't care enough about you and your cultures to learn and you all look the same so I'll pick a few random things that have stuck in my mind add in a few crude sterotypes and assume it applies to the whole lot of you in what ever way makes me feel good. Hurrah!"
" As you needed me to actually name your own things properly as well as your tendancy to be <insert crude sterotype I just asigned to you> it's clear you need people like me to make decisions for you. Please be aware I dont care enough to check if they are correct or not I'll make them entirely based on what I like. Hurrah! "
Imagine years later someone from that same culture came to you saying.
" I've made a fictionalised version of your part of the world as I really like your culture. "
OK so far so good.
" Yeah I've just changed the names of everything to make it sound more fantasy and I've mixed your history up with that other country you don't like as the people who'll read it don't know the difference.
Plus I just made some bits up so its more like people would expect from xxxx part of the world. "
and you can maybe see why it would just seem like more of the same thing to someone whose culture had been on the recieving end of that sort of stereotyping but not bother someone whose culture hadn't.
This is why those using a mixed European setting as a counterweight argument to asian depictions aren't making a like for like comparison. Europe as a whole never had that done to it by people whose descendents are now making up fantasy versions with out the malice of yesteryear and with good intentions but still similar levels of lack of care or empathy.
Moving to specifics. My wife is regularly confronted with images of Native American culture often in advertising that is to be honest the equivalent of sticking someone in a grass skirt with a bone through their nose or doing kung fu with big sleeves and a long mustache. I have come to the conclusion that British people generally, due to a lack of interaction with genuine Native americans and only ever seeing them in fictional form despite knowing they are real on a factual level, instinctively lump them in with pirates and ninjas and wizards and treat them accordingly.
My wife actually met an organiser of a number of festivals and after talking to her he banned people selling fake native american headdresses at the festivals he ran. Quite a few people complained using some of the arguments I've seen on here." It's not supposed to be serious" or "people can buy roman or spartan costumes so what's the difference" etc.
But frankly if 99% of the worlds population only know your culture at all through crude, innacurate, careless portrayals in movies made by the descendants of the people that repeatedly kicked your ancestors off their land (the ones they didn't kill). Movies which portray you as the baddies and the people that massacred you as the heroes to boot. Then having to see a stoned out welly clad hipster wearing a bastardisation of one your cultures highest symbols of dignity and reverance whilst swigging flat lager and cod philosophising on the oneness of nature in between performances of washed out landfill indie bands is more that anyone should be asked to bare.
Going back to Asia more specifically using Japan as a bellwether for anything pan-asian even if designed to be mainly Japanese inspired, isnt a good idea as it again asumes it's all kinda the same thing. Ask a Japanese person if the term "Asiajin" (Asian person) in Japanese includes Japanese people and they'll be offended.
Japanese people like the British judge a lot of their standing in the world based on how much attention the US gives them and tend to be quite forgiving with how it is portrayed.
The Last Samurai was very popular in Japan despite the inaccuracies and the whole white saviour thing as the japanese characters were portrayed well and the actors in it got a lot of respect and attention in the US. Whereas in the same year Lost in Translation was greeted kind of negatively as it is based on the premise of ooh look Japan is so strange, which was kind of insulting to a lot of Japanese people and Memoires of a Geisha shortly afterwards went down like a lead balloon after they cast a Chinese actoress in the main role but the book had been fairly popular.
Getting actual Japanese people to test your game is good but assuming that means it's then Asian approved is just another way of saying "but you're all the same aren't you" when you get down to it.
Last edited:
Sacrosanct
Legend
I don't think I'm making the comparison you think I am. I think you've completely missed the point if this is your take away
Or collaborate and research?
Jiggawatts
Adventurer
Collaboration is of course an option, one that will be pursued by several, but not universally. Do note, I am not remarking what should happen, but observing what likely will happen.
BookTenTiger
He / Him
The way you wrote your original post seemed to imply a strong negative here. I think in the context of all this it's a positive that creators will feel a need to collaborate if they want to produce work outside of their own cultural experience. Maybe one day we will move beyond that, but we've had the opposite for a long, long time.
Dire Bare
Legend
EDIT: Last night I was posting tired, not that's a good excuse, and frustrated with some of the arguments already pulled up in this thread. But on reflection, my responses to @Mallus were not fair. Sorry for that. I didn't mean to try and qualify your "level" of Asian-ness, which is what my response here sounds like to me today. Your voice certainly counts, whatever your opinions might be.
Yes, you'll do.
The experience of those of Asian descent is obviously varied and not a monolith. "Asian" is so broad a term to be almost meaningless, and there are large differences in experience between generations, especially between those born and raised in an Asian culture, and those a part of the Asian diaspora (Asian-American, Asian-Canadian, etc).
How immersed were you in your Asian ancestry, how knowledgeable are you of Asian cultures, and how the West has historically orientalized them? Not that where you fall on the spectrums gives your experience and opinions any more or less weight, but it will affect them. Japanese ancestry vs Korean ancestry, for example, can make a difference.
Whatever your experience, whatever your opinion . . . . it counts and we should listen. And add your voice to the other Asian-descent gamer/nerd voices out there on the subject.
Some Asian-descent gamers have no issues with the Oriental Adventures line of products. Others just get pissed and bothered on the subject. It'd be nice if we had survey data to give us an idea of how the community at large felt about the issue (who knows, maybe WotC does?) . . . . but the fact remains that many Asian-descent nerds have expressed upset over how D&D has historically presented their cultures, with Oriental Adventures (1E) being the first and worst offender. The specific complaints line up very well with how other Western media and academia has treated Asian cultures for centuries, D&D isn't alone with how it mistreats Asian cultures.
How many folks have to point out the problems and how it negatively affects them before it becomes wrong? If most of the voices that speak out share their upset over OA, but a few shrug and share they don't think it's a big deal . . . . so then it's not a real problem?
And it isn't just how D&D (and Western media at large) treat Asian cultures . . . . we have pretty much the same problem with how D&D treats any non-European cultures. Al-Qadim, Maztica, the various real-world analog nations of Mystara's Known World . . . . all problematic for similar reasons. It's why you won't see WotC rebooting any of those properties.
I'm sure there are some Hispanic gamers who aren't bothered by Maztica, Arabic gamers who don't mind Al-Qadim . . . . . doesn't invalidate the problematic elements, the harm, the hurt. Or the fact none of these properties are ever coming back. Well, outside of some fan releases on the DM's Guild.
Last edited:
Jd Smith1
Hero
As both non-white and old, I miss the old days. Racism is not less common now than it was back then, but honesty has gone by the wayside.
I preferred the days when a person would make it very clear that they disliked 'my kind'. That's OK, at least I know where you stand. Nowadays, all that has changed is they have built a better bigot. Now everyone plays nice to your face; the same number are biased against you, but they are careful to hide it.
One thing I have always been annoyed by is white people who think they need to fight my fight. That is far more insulting and patronizing than bigots.
I preferred the days when a person would make it very clear that they disliked 'my kind'. That's OK, at least I know where you stand. Nowadays, all that has changed is they have built a better bigot. Now everyone plays nice to your face; the same number are biased against you, but they are careful to hide it.
One thing I have always been annoyed by is white people who think they need to fight my fight. That is far more insulting and patronizing than bigots.
Dire Bare
Legend
EDIT: As with @Mallus above, my responses to @Willie the Duck were over the top also. Sorry for that as well. I misunderstood what @Willie the Duck was trying to say and conflated his posts with others. Not that excuses my tone and words.
No we're not. We've pointed y'all to a podcast that breaks down the text multiple times. We're just tired with engaging with the deniers over and over again.
So, I suppose I'll step into the hornet's nest with one example.
One of the main criticisms of the Oriental Adventures line and the Kara-Tur setting is that it is presented as a pan-Asian setting but takes most of its inspiration from Japanese culture as seen through Western eyes. In the Oriental Adventures hardcover, we're introduced to the samurai class, a misappropriation of a Japanese cultural element. In the Kara-Tur boxed set, NPCs of all the various nations are often described as having levels in the samurai class . . . . if they're from Japanese influenced Wa or Kozakura, Korean-inspired Koryo, or Chinese-inspired Shou Lung and T'u Lung.
The class itself is based on a stereotype of how the West views Japanese samurai, and then it is used to describe characters from all over Kara-Tur. When I was young, I didn't even notice or realize this was problematic. I've since listened to gamers much more familiar with Asian culture, geography, and history than I am and my eyes have been opened.
You want more examples? There are plenty. Are you REALLY interested or just throwing up blocks to the argument? If you truly are interested, listen to the Asians Represent podcast for some views from Asian-descent gamers. There are a lot of episodes, they are two-hours long each, the panel tends to wander a bit, they only cover mere pages per episode . . . . but it's right there, waiting for you . . . . if you are really, truly interested in learning.
Last edited:
Jiggawatts
Adventurer
Perhaps I did not properly convey my meaning in my original post, apologies. It was not negativity that is intended, but rather just an observation. This will result in less exploring of the unknown from the perspective of (a percentage of) creators and artists. You've heard the term "I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole" (particularly apropos in a D&D forum), that philosophy will become more and more normalized. You spoke of collaboration, and that is a fine idea, but human nature often leads folks to pursue the path of most efficiency and/or lesser resistance, and pursuing collaboration requires extra steps and more effort.
Whether this is good, bad, or something in between I will leave for others to decide.
- Status
